helper hours?
- Thread starter jamesandsimo
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LOL. she wears white collared t-shirt & khaki long or 3/4 pants, socks & shoes, which are all provided. all of my friend's helpers wear those. she needs to tie up their hair, short nails, no nail polish (i'm dead already, so don't shoot!), no makeup. no chatting on the phone during working hours. returning before 9pm on holidays.
i've never had a DH before i had my baby. i grew up like most of you here without help at home so i'm used to sharing the household chores with my mom & sis. everything i know about hiring, treating & training a DH was taught to me by my agent, and my friends.
i've never had a DH before i had my baby. i grew up like most of you here without help at home so i'm used to sharing the household chores with my mom & sis. everything i know about hiring, treating & training a DH was taught to me by my agent, and my friends.
Personally i don't have a problem with the uniform thing. It's not like you are making her wear a french maid's outfit! It's like us going to work and being asked to wear a uniform or at least dress to a certain standard. I also agree with the not talking on the phone during work hours. The number of helpers you see taking the kids out to play etc that then ignore them while they talk on the phone for ages is quite something. It's not something I'd put up with.
I don't however get the rational behind the make up and the 9pm curfew (unless you're helper likes to apply make up like a hooker that is). If my boss told me to be home by 9pm the night before i go to work I'd tell him something that would probably put me out of a job.... This seems to happen a lot here. I would never demand that my helper be home by a certain time the night before. As long as she can do her job and isn't coming home drunk etc what's the big deal? It's not like they get a lot of time of, especially at your house joannek
I don't however get the rational behind the make up and the 9pm curfew (unless you're helper likes to apply make up like a hooker that is). If my boss told me to be home by 9pm the night before i go to work I'd tell him something that would probably put me out of a job.... This seems to happen a lot here. I would never demand that my helper be home by a certain time the night before. As long as she can do her job and isn't coming home drunk etc what's the big deal? It's not like they get a lot of time of, especially at your house joannek
I had visions of a french maid's outfit as well ! Glad you sorted that one out for us joannek.
So you grew up without help, so your mum and dad looked after you and your sister. I find it strange, given your upbringing, that you won't go out without bringing your maid along to carry the shopping and nappy bag. Would you consider structuring your day so that your maid gets time off for a rest/nap especially if she is up a couple of times in the night to attend to your daughter?
You must love your husband a lot to put up with a mother-in-law like that. May I be nosey and ask if she lives with you? If so, you have my fullest sympathies.
So you grew up without help, so your mum and dad looked after you and your sister. I find it strange, given your upbringing, that you won't go out without bringing your maid along to carry the shopping and nappy bag. Would you consider structuring your day so that your maid gets time off for a rest/nap especially if she is up a couple of times in the night to attend to your daughter?
You must love your husband a lot to put up with a mother-in-law like that. May I be nosey and ask if she lives with you? If so, you have my fullest sympathies.
I also provide "uniforms" for my helpers. When they came on board, I asked them if they want "uniforms". I told them it will be black track pants and polo shirts from Bossini. They both agree. Sometimes they wear their own clothes, most of the time, they wear the "uniforms."
I agree on the phone thing. With my previous DH, I was out for an appointment one day and when I came home , I walked in on her talking on the phone and feeding my then 5 month old. I must have startled her that she dropped the phone and thankfully not the baby! After that I told her she shouldn't chat on the phone while minding the baby. I don't mind if she chats on the phone when she is ironing or something.
While I don't ask them to return home very early on their rest days, I did tell them I want them home by 10:30 pm. One of them always come back around 8 pm and have dinner here. She said she wants to save money by eating home. She always helps out in the kitchen despite me constantly telling her its her rest day and she doesn't need to do anything.
I do have a rule about not bringing friends home without my permission.
I agree on the phone thing. With my previous DH, I was out for an appointment one day and when I came home , I walked in on her talking on the phone and feeding my then 5 month old. I must have startled her that she dropped the phone and thankfully not the baby! After that I told her she shouldn't chat on the phone while minding the baby. I don't mind if she chats on the phone when she is ironing or something.
While I don't ask them to return home very early on their rest days, I did tell them I want them home by 10:30 pm. One of them always come back around 8 pm and have dinner here. She said she wants to save money by eating home. She always helps out in the kitchen despite me constantly telling her its her rest day and she doesn't need to do anything.
I do have a rule about not bringing friends home without my permission.
I?m intrigued by the several postings that admit to demanding that the DH is home by a certain time on their ?rest? day.
How many of you are aware that, legally, a DH is entitled to a full 24 hours once a week and on statutory - not Public - holidays?
Are you doing this out of ignorance of the law or simply breaking it because ?everybody does it??
Best regards,
Regislea
How many of you are aware that, legally, a DH is entitled to a full 24 hours once a week and on statutory - not Public - holidays?
Are you doing this out of ignorance of the law or simply breaking it because ?everybody does it??
Best regards,
Regislea
regislea, I didn't impose a curfew for my helper, but just to answer your question, the 24 hour rule starts from the time when the helper starts to rest the previous day. e.g. if your helper rests on Sunday and she finishes her work at 8pm on Saturday, then the 24 hours will be over by 8pm on Sunday and so she will be expected to be home by 8pm on Sunday.
This is what I read on the baby forum for local Chinese. Most of the local Chinese families want their helpers to be home early on Sunday for various reasons, some need their help to tidy up or clean the home after spending a whole day with the baby, others believe helpers will be exposed to bad influence if they hang out with their friends for too long. So they will let their helpers finish their day early in the evening before their rest day so they won't break the law even if they ask the helpers to come home early.
just thought this is interesting to share.
This is what I read on the baby forum for local Chinese. Most of the local Chinese families want their helpers to be home early on Sunday for various reasons, some need their help to tidy up or clean the home after spending a whole day with the baby, others believe helpers will be exposed to bad influence if they hang out with their friends for too long. So they will let their helpers finish their day early in the evening before their rest day so they won't break the law even if they ask the helpers to come home early.
just thought this is interesting to share.
jamesandsimo
Registered User
sorry all - didn't mean this to get out of hand. ALL i NEEDED to know what the LEGAL hours for employment. Surely there must be something???? Most of our husbands (or wives) who work have a 8am - 6pm contract (yes, i know they work longer, some get overtime some dont etc etc)
I will try and check with the government what is legal - personally i don't think its ethical or should be legal for helpers to work more than 12 hour days, especially without breaks -i don't think we 'own' them. I would totally be offended if my husband was required to work 15 hour days 6 days a week with 7 days off a year!
I will try and check with the government what is legal - personally i don't think its ethical or should be legal for helpers to work more than 12 hour days, especially without breaks -i don't think we 'own' them. I would totally be offended if my husband was required to work 15 hour days 6 days a week with 7 days off a year!
Hi Jamesandmio, am pretty sure you won't find any legal limit for the number of hours a helper can work. If there was a limit, am pretty sure it would be in the contract but there is nothing in there.
You'll find in HK that it's one set of labour laws for helpers and one set of labour laws for the rest of us! I also don't think the labour laws for the rest of us in HK are particularly stringent either.
In Canada for example helpers are not allowed to work more than 8 hours a day, and if for whatever reason they are required to work more than 8 hrs you must pay them overtime. I can tell you that nothing like that exists in HK.
I believe the only law is that you must give them one day of 24 hours off a week.
It is horrendous- but without legal limits on how many hrs a day people can make their helpers work it is something the govt. allows to happen. All you can do is impose your own hours of work a day that you think are appropriate. If 12 is too much, so don't ask your helper to work 12 hrs.
You'll find in HK that it's one set of labour laws for helpers and one set of labour laws for the rest of us! I also don't think the labour laws for the rest of us in HK are particularly stringent either.
In Canada for example helpers are not allowed to work more than 8 hours a day, and if for whatever reason they are required to work more than 8 hrs you must pay them overtime. I can tell you that nothing like that exists in HK.
I believe the only law is that you must give them one day of 24 hours off a week.
It is horrendous- but without legal limits on how many hrs a day people can make their helpers work it is something the govt. allows to happen. All you can do is impose your own hours of work a day that you think are appropriate. If 12 is too much, so don't ask your helper to work 12 hrs.
I think the condition here is quite different from the west. You might already notice that in HK, a lot of mums continue to work after they give birth, mostly for financial reasons. In HK, there's not a good pension system and people do have to pay for healthcare so locals need to work to save up for their retirement and children's education. Since both parents work and a lot have jobs with long hours or shifts (a lot of locals are in service industry), they need their DHs to work long hours. It is not a matter of being mean or not, it is the only option.
Of course, there are some truely mean employers who would work their DHs' asses off with unreasonable demands and expectations.
But hypothetically speaking, if HK implement maximum work hours and overtime system, many mums might be forced to stay home as it would be too costly to hire DHs. While there could be a further decrease in the already low birth rate because some families just can't afford to raise children with single income. The population would get older, more pressure on healthcare, increased taxation, and social problems...
Of course, there are some truely mean employers who would work their DHs' asses off with unreasonable demands and expectations.
But hypothetically speaking, if HK implement maximum work hours and overtime system, many mums might be forced to stay home as it would be too costly to hire DHs. While there could be a further decrease in the already low birth rate because some families just can't afford to raise children with single income. The population would get older, more pressure on healthcare, increased taxation, and social problems...
agree, you won't be able to find anything on legal work hours for DH. The best you can do is to impose what you think is humane and 'right' for your DH at home, and perhaps structure work in such a way that she will do more cleaning and other chaos (e.g. ironing, laundry for adults, cleaning kitchen etc.) on Sat so she doesn't need to work until she is completely exhausted during the week.
Just FYI, a lot of local employers also actually do not let their DHs get a rest day every week (they pay them for that extra day of work) because they don't want them to be exposed to "bad influence".
I didn't find the topic got out of hand, it's pretty interesting discussion actually...
Just FYI, a lot of local employers also actually do not let their DHs get a rest day every week (they pay them for that extra day of work) because they don't want them to be exposed to "bad influence".
I didn't find the topic got out of hand, it's pretty interesting discussion actually...
I agree with Vivian, it's an interesting topic and is in no way out of hand.
What I really don't get is why and how helpers are being worked to exhaustion. Maybe someone could explain. Our house is not huge but at just under 2000 square foot it's big by Hong Kong standards yet the whole place can be cleaned when my son is napping during the day. Am I missing something? What do you actually get your helpers to do that keeps them so busy (not including child minding)? I'm genuinely curious.. maybe my house is dirty! I know my helper is a little lazy and just likes to tick the boxes with her cleaning so to speak but we have another one starting soon and i'd like to make sure we have her doing what she should be doing.
What I really don't get is why and how helpers are being worked to exhaustion. Maybe someone could explain. Our house is not huge but at just under 2000 square foot it's big by Hong Kong standards yet the whole place can be cleaned when my son is napping during the day. Am I missing something? What do you actually get your helpers to do that keeps them so busy (not including child minding)? I'm genuinely curious.. maybe my house is dirty! I know my helper is a little lazy and just likes to tick the boxes with her cleaning so to speak but we have another one starting soon and i'd like to make sure we have her doing what she should be doing.
my child-minding helper is defintely not "busy" to a lot of local standards. i've known families who employ one DH to do all the cleaning, cooking & child minding. now that's "busy".
i ask my DH to come home before 9pm,because of the "bad influence" factor. but obviously one can learn to be "bad" even when going out during the day! but i always ask her not to do anything on the day of her "rest". but she always choose to finish off with clearing my daughter's diaper bad & refilling the clothes & getting the things prepared for the next day. i guess she thinks it's gonna be her work anyway whether she does it today or tomorrow. if i do need her to come home early for some reasons that i need her to help me out, i pay her a full day's pay (even if it's just 1 or 2 hrs).
when she arrived she told me all the 6 yrs she worked in Taiwan, she's NEVER had a day off. I was shocked!! she said she's NEVER went out on her own!!
about me never having a DH & now bring her out to just carry things - i used to feel sooooooo weird with this person tagging along my back carrying groceries. now i'm used to it.
i ask my DH to come home before 9pm,because of the "bad influence" factor. but obviously one can learn to be "bad" even when going out during the day! but i always ask her not to do anything on the day of her "rest". but she always choose to finish off with clearing my daughter's diaper bad & refilling the clothes & getting the things prepared for the next day. i guess she thinks it's gonna be her work anyway whether she does it today or tomorrow. if i do need her to come home early for some reasons that i need her to help me out, i pay her a full day's pay (even if it's just 1 or 2 hrs).
when she arrived she told me all the 6 yrs she worked in Taiwan, she's NEVER had a day off. I was shocked!! she said she's NEVER went out on her own!!
about me never having a DH & now bring her out to just carry things - i used to feel sooooooo weird with this person tagging along my back carrying groceries. now i'm used to it.
i think ours is not busy either. I work full time and I used to do all the cleaning and cooking myself. Well, alright! My hubby did help out with laundry and dishes. So our DH is very much doing the same work with more time. Although I do believe minding a baby is A LOT OF WORK. But our helper is very organized and efficient, otherwise, how could she find time to take afternoon naps and watch DVDs during the day?
But back to Aussiegal's question... I guess there are some employers who are unreasonably picky / demanding? I know people who expect the floor to be moped with bleach followed by 2 rounds with water - that alone is 3 times the work. And then there are families that genuinly need the DH drop off and pick up the kid from school, prepare the kid's lunch then dinner for the family -- that already keep the DH very busy. I understand quite a large proportion of mums in this forum stays home or with part-time or flexible jobs (I being one of them). I think the fact that we are home or get to spend more time with the kids than average working mum gives our DH more time to do other work too.
But back to Aussiegal's question... I guess there are some employers who are unreasonably picky / demanding? I know people who expect the floor to be moped with bleach followed by 2 rounds with water - that alone is 3 times the work. And then there are families that genuinly need the DH drop off and pick up the kid from school, prepare the kid's lunch then dinner for the family -- that already keep the DH very busy. I understand quite a large proportion of mums in this forum stays home or with part-time or flexible jobs (I being one of them). I think the fact that we are home or get to spend more time with the kids than average working mum gives our DH more time to do other work too.
I have 2 helpers. One of them goes to the market, cooks and does the dusting around the apartment. The other one does the laundry, ironing, vaccuming and cleaning of the toilets. I just had a baby who is 6 week old, so the one that cooks also has to take my older LO to playgroups 3 times a week (1.5 hours each time). The reason I let her take LO to playgroup is because I am breastfeeding on demand (still trying to establish a schedule here) and I don't trust them with the newborn at home. They also have weekly chores such as cleaning of the fridge, interior windows, polishing silverware etc.
DH Hours
Can I just deal - hopefully definitively - with the actual legal siutuation? There are no maximum working hours for anyone in Hong Kong - whether DH or CEO of Cheung Kong! What the Labour Ordinance does say is that any worker is entitled to a 24 hour rest period in any given 7-day period, plus statutory holidays. The lady who writes that she gives her DH 8pm to 8pm is within the law - although whether morally she should run her DH?s life for her is a question between her and her helper, I suppose. And by the way, if the DH does not take her day off and gets paid in lieu, the employer is still breakng the law!
In practice, however, very few helpers get the full 24 hours (one survey suggests that over 90% don?t!). What happens is that they work until abut 10am and have to be back by 8pm - the so-called ?curfew?. As an exercise, go to Statue Square, Causeway Bay or Wanchai and watch the rush for the MTR any time after 7pm.
If anyone wants the full details of the regualtions, I suggest you go to:
http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/hkvisas_5.5.htm
which is the Guidelines document produced by Immigration Department. Every employer should have this anyway, but the relevant segments are:
Statutory holidays
60.*****The employer is required to grant statutory holidays to the Helper in accordance with the Employment Ordinance.
61.*****If the Helper has worked continuously for the employer for 3 months preceding any of these holidays, he/she is entitled to be paid for that holiday.
Rest day
62.*****Under the Employment Ordinance, the Helper is entitled to not less than 1 rest day in every period of 7 days. A rest day is a continuous period of not less than 24 hours. The dates of the weekly rest day will be appointed by the employer who must, unless the rest days are on a regular basis, notify the Helper before the beginning of each month.
Best regards,
Kingsley
Can I just deal - hopefully definitively - with the actual legal siutuation? There are no maximum working hours for anyone in Hong Kong - whether DH or CEO of Cheung Kong! What the Labour Ordinance does say is that any worker is entitled to a 24 hour rest period in any given 7-day period, plus statutory holidays. The lady who writes that she gives her DH 8pm to 8pm is within the law - although whether morally she should run her DH?s life for her is a question between her and her helper, I suppose. And by the way, if the DH does not take her day off and gets paid in lieu, the employer is still breakng the law!
In practice, however, very few helpers get the full 24 hours (one survey suggests that over 90% don?t!). What happens is that they work until abut 10am and have to be back by 8pm - the so-called ?curfew?. As an exercise, go to Statue Square, Causeway Bay or Wanchai and watch the rush for the MTR any time after 7pm.
If anyone wants the full details of the regualtions, I suggest you go to:
http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/hkvisas_5.5.htm
which is the Guidelines document produced by Immigration Department. Every employer should have this anyway, but the relevant segments are:
Statutory holidays
60.*****The employer is required to grant statutory holidays to the Helper in accordance with the Employment Ordinance.
61.*****If the Helper has worked continuously for the employer for 3 months preceding any of these holidays, he/she is entitled to be paid for that holiday.
Rest day
62.*****Under the Employment Ordinance, the Helper is entitled to not less than 1 rest day in every period of 7 days. A rest day is a continuous period of not less than 24 hours. The dates of the weekly rest day will be appointed by the employer who must, unless the rest days are on a regular basis, notify the Helper before the beginning of each month.
Best regards,
Kingsley
Regislea - thanks for the definitive legal answer !
Back to the interesting discussion...
I'm with Aussiegal, what do helpers do all day with a SAHM? Why do they need to work such long hours? When we holiday in Australia I do all our housework (well, my husband sometimes helps).
* washing takes no time at all - sort clothes, put them into the washing machine, turn it on.
* ironing - for a family of 4 I spend maybe an hour ironing every few days
*vaccuming - even our house in Australia, which is bigger than our HK flat, takes maybe half an hour a day to do it all. I also wash the floor once/twice a week depending on what state it is in.
* clean the bathrooms - I generally do it whilst I'm in the shower (not an option for a domestic helper obviously) but maybe 5 mins, then a quick wash of the floor, wipe of the benches and mirror, clean toilet. Maybe half an hour twice a week for 2 bathrooms?
* Say approx weekly we also do other things like clean the fridge/cupboards/windows/sweep outside/gardening (we only have a courtyard garden)/changing sheets. Maybe an hour a week?
* cooking - well, I suppose it depends on whether you have 10 course lunches, but we just have cereal/toast for breakfast (no time at all), sandwiches for lunch (no time at all), cooked meal for dinner (maybe an hour a day)
* cleaning up after meals - this can take a while when my 16 month old decides to throw her dinner around, but just wipe, rinse the plates, put them in the dishwasher - half an hour.
* shopping - I like buying fresh everyday. I make it a bit of an outing with my daughters and we often walk there (16 month old in the pram). Hard to quantify time, especially as we often stop at the park on the way.
* I'm sure I've forgotten other things...
So, maybe 3 hours a day? What do domestic helpers do all day? Maybe my housekeeping standards are too low???
Back to the interesting discussion...
I'm with Aussiegal, what do helpers do all day with a SAHM? Why do they need to work such long hours? When we holiday in Australia I do all our housework (well, my husband sometimes helps).
* washing takes no time at all - sort clothes, put them into the washing machine, turn it on.
* ironing - for a family of 4 I spend maybe an hour ironing every few days
*vaccuming - even our house in Australia, which is bigger than our HK flat, takes maybe half an hour a day to do it all. I also wash the floor once/twice a week depending on what state it is in.
* clean the bathrooms - I generally do it whilst I'm in the shower (not an option for a domestic helper obviously) but maybe 5 mins, then a quick wash of the floor, wipe of the benches and mirror, clean toilet. Maybe half an hour twice a week for 2 bathrooms?
* Say approx weekly we also do other things like clean the fridge/cupboards/windows/sweep outside/gardening (we only have a courtyard garden)/changing sheets. Maybe an hour a week?
* cooking - well, I suppose it depends on whether you have 10 course lunches, but we just have cereal/toast for breakfast (no time at all), sandwiches for lunch (no time at all), cooked meal for dinner (maybe an hour a day)
* cleaning up after meals - this can take a while when my 16 month old decides to throw her dinner around, but just wipe, rinse the plates, put them in the dishwasher - half an hour.
* shopping - I like buying fresh everyday. I make it a bit of an outing with my daughters and we often walk there (16 month old in the pram). Hard to quantify time, especially as we often stop at the park on the way.
* I'm sure I've forgotten other things...
So, maybe 3 hours a day? What do domestic helpers do all day? Maybe my housekeeping standards are too low???
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