FutureHKmom
Registered User
Call SCMP!!! Get them to write a story on them!! This is so ridiculous!
trapped....please suggest some solution
- Thread starter rs2000
- Start date
Hi All,
I went to the school and to the education bureau. Spent 4 hours total and ended up wit high blood pressure.
School: The office was empty and all the school senior people (foreigners) are actually off and I would imagine they would not come back until the school opens again next month. I spoke to this #$tch in the accounts department who already had a file with all my emails and everything. They told me 20 stories in last one week and seems she has finally found the argument.
Her argument: We told you on 20th june that you are on waiting list. You pad 1 hour later, knowing that you are on wiating list. so the fee was for putting you on waiting list and hence will not be refunded, as the initial offer letter says.
My Argument: I paid on 20th June to get my seat and as per the document & the email, I had time till 20th of june and pain in time. I paid to get my seat and forced the school. I tried hard to convince them on 20th. They wrongly gave my seat to someone and put me on waiting list. Depsite the above behavior, I did not claim anything and looked for another school anxiously. I got the shool and paid. I asked you to refind my deposit since you did not acnknowledge your commitment and put me on waiting list.
She kept repeating her argument and told me how "many parents pay and be in the waiting list". i told her "well they have money and their choice, I dont have". I asked her why they are so keen to rob me off my money and there was no reply. In think, i got up saying I would complain in education department and will also contact a lawyer. This , atleast visibly, did not have any effect on her.
This school is effecting my health now. I am trying hard not to think about it. Another way to think is that all senir people are off. these are bunch of these stupd girls in office and this one is their "manager" who just does not want to accept their blunder or lose the cahs they have got 1 month back.
Next, i went to education bureau. The officer met me. listened to the whole story. agreed with me. told me he will email them. but also told me that its a prviate shcool, though they are registered with education dept, they CANT enforce them to do anything. I should contact small claims tribunal. He will email the school and ask for explanation. I know its easy for them to form a "policy" which will say they dont give money back etc etc
Now thats why next step now, small claims. i got the company registered address from goct website. reading all above, do you think I have a fair chance of winning? considering all arguments above? If you are or if you know a lawyer who can help me write my case or give some verbal advice on solving this, please kindly let me know!
they havent shown a single moment of apology...never accepted the mistake..never even said it was wrong to put me on waitinglist....i just feel frustrated to have been cheated like this.........
please keep your support coming!
thanks a lot
I went to the school and to the education bureau. Spent 4 hours total and ended up wit high blood pressure.
School: The office was empty and all the school senior people (foreigners) are actually off and I would imagine they would not come back until the school opens again next month. I spoke to this #$tch in the accounts department who already had a file with all my emails and everything. They told me 20 stories in last one week and seems she has finally found the argument.
Her argument: We told you on 20th june that you are on waiting list. You pad 1 hour later, knowing that you are on wiating list. so the fee was for putting you on waiting list and hence will not be refunded, as the initial offer letter says.
My Argument: I paid on 20th June to get my seat and as per the document & the email, I had time till 20th of june and pain in time. I paid to get my seat and forced the school. I tried hard to convince them on 20th. They wrongly gave my seat to someone and put me on waiting list. Depsite the above behavior, I did not claim anything and looked for another school anxiously. I got the shool and paid. I asked you to refind my deposit since you did not acnknowledge your commitment and put me on waiting list.
She kept repeating her argument and told me how "many parents pay and be in the waiting list". i told her "well they have money and their choice, I dont have". I asked her why they are so keen to rob me off my money and there was no reply. In think, i got up saying I would complain in education department and will also contact a lawyer. This , atleast visibly, did not have any effect on her.
This school is effecting my health now. I am trying hard not to think about it. Another way to think is that all senir people are off. these are bunch of these stupd girls in office and this one is their "manager" who just does not want to accept their blunder or lose the cahs they have got 1 month back.
Next, i went to education bureau. The officer met me. listened to the whole story. agreed with me. told me he will email them. but also told me that its a prviate shcool, though they are registered with education dept, they CANT enforce them to do anything. I should contact small claims tribunal. He will email the school and ask for explanation. I know its easy for them to form a "policy" which will say they dont give money back etc etc
Now thats why next step now, small claims. i got the company registered address from goct website. reading all above, do you think I have a fair chance of winning? considering all arguments above? If you are or if you know a lawyer who can help me write my case or give some verbal advice on solving this, please kindly let me know!
they havent shown a single moment of apology...never accepted the mistake..never even said it was wrong to put me on waitinglist....i just feel frustrated to have been cheated like this.........
please keep your support coming!
thanks a lot
If I go back to your first email, it appears you paid before they told you that you were on the waiting list, so I'm not sure what this woman's argument is.
Either way, in terms of your case, I think this is simple contract law. Contract law basic principles are that there is an offer and an acceptance, and those two together make a contract. You have to have both. Here we have two potential offers and two potential acceptances:
Offer 1: Via letter and email - I offer you a spot in this school upon payment
Acceptance 1: You pay and accept their offer.
If this is how a court sees the facts, then the school breached your contract because they did not give you a spot, and owe you damages (which in this case you are saying is simply a refund). It does not matter that they later offered you a spot, because once you knew of their breach you took appropriate measures to get into a different school. Your damages would either be for them to pay the other school's deposit and let you enroll in their school, or refund your deposit at their school.
Their scenario: The school admits, yes, we made Offer 1, but we rescinded it (took it back before you could accept it), and gave you:
Offer 2: Put you on the waitlist in exchange for payment.
Acceptance 2: You pay and accept their offer.
The above is what they are trying to argue. This is of course an oversimplification of how contract law works, but from a reading of your facts, the cannot argue they properly rescinded their offer and gave you a new offer, because their original offer had a deadline that you met, and also, you paid before they gave you the new offer of a waitlist spot.
Since this is a small claims case you probably don't need a lawyer, I just don't see from these facts how they can take your money.
By the way, since you are at a new school anyway, what is the harm in telling us the name of this school? It's quite possible parents of kids who attend that school or even school faculty read Geobaby and would see this post and help remedy it.
Either way, in terms of your case, I think this is simple contract law. Contract law basic principles are that there is an offer and an acceptance, and those two together make a contract. You have to have both. Here we have two potential offers and two potential acceptances:
Offer 1: Via letter and email - I offer you a spot in this school upon payment
Acceptance 1: You pay and accept their offer.
If this is how a court sees the facts, then the school breached your contract because they did not give you a spot, and owe you damages (which in this case you are saying is simply a refund). It does not matter that they later offered you a spot, because once you knew of their breach you took appropriate measures to get into a different school. Your damages would either be for them to pay the other school's deposit and let you enroll in their school, or refund your deposit at their school.
Their scenario: The school admits, yes, we made Offer 1, but we rescinded it (took it back before you could accept it), and gave you:
Offer 2: Put you on the waitlist in exchange for payment.
Acceptance 2: You pay and accept their offer.
The above is what they are trying to argue. This is of course an oversimplification of how contract law works, but from a reading of your facts, the cannot argue they properly rescinded their offer and gave you a new offer, because their original offer had a deadline that you met, and also, you paid before they gave you the new offer of a waitlist spot.
Since this is a small claims case you probably don't need a lawyer, I just don't see from these facts how they can take your money.
By the way, since you are at a new school anyway, what is the harm in telling us the name of this school? It's quite possible parents of kids who attend that school or even school faculty read Geobaby and would see this post and help remedy it.
Hi All,
I transferred the money after they told me on phone that my seat is gone. However, I (and i am speaking from my heart), only transferred the money in order to prove to my fair point that I have paid deposit in time (i.e. on 20th June) and argued with them to give me the admission that day. My intent was to prove (and I thought i would be able to prove this) that I had paid on time and I should be given the admission right away
They kept avoiding this and trying to argue how to count 7 days (the letter says within 7 days from today i.e. 13th June) and the email clearly says 20th June. The whole day passed and I could not pursue them.
Based on the above facts, is my case strong enough? please give your views
On a seperate note, I fail to understand how they can say that I paid for waiting list? They say its a school policy and parents pay to be put on the waiting list? 9,000 hk$ to be paid on waiting list? they told me they refund it if the seat does not become available in 1 year. that means that I need to keep waiting 1 year and give up the other school so that these guys offered me???
The think which makes my blood boil is that there is absoultely not even a slightest node of apology or anything. infact the lady was acting very surprised as per how can I ask for refund. I told them I am not asking for damages in terms of the stress and the breach of commitment . I am simply asking for my money back. she is telling me how there are other parents who have paid and are on waiting list...@$#@$$@ i dont have money. if someone has, is it my problem?
please people assess the situation and let me know about whether i should have any hope here?
I though i would not name them as it would damage the repute and also might get my child's name involved somewhere (if i goto media etc etc). its American International School.
Are these the rights we have in HK (as parents of kids who need schooling and as individuals who dont have fancy lawyers or papers to put policies)? I feel so weak.........
I transferred the money after they told me on phone that my seat is gone. However, I (and i am speaking from my heart), only transferred the money in order to prove to my fair point that I have paid deposit in time (i.e. on 20th June) and argued with them to give me the admission that day. My intent was to prove (and I thought i would be able to prove this) that I had paid on time and I should be given the admission right away
They kept avoiding this and trying to argue how to count 7 days (the letter says within 7 days from today i.e. 13th June) and the email clearly says 20th June. The whole day passed and I could not pursue them.
Based on the above facts, is my case strong enough? please give your views
On a seperate note, I fail to understand how they can say that I paid for waiting list? They say its a school policy and parents pay to be put on the waiting list? 9,000 hk$ to be paid on waiting list? they told me they refund it if the seat does not become available in 1 year. that means that I need to keep waiting 1 year and give up the other school so that these guys offered me???
The think which makes my blood boil is that there is absoultely not even a slightest node of apology or anything. infact the lady was acting very surprised as per how can I ask for refund. I told them I am not asking for damages in terms of the stress and the breach of commitment . I am simply asking for my money back. she is telling me how there are other parents who have paid and are on waiting list...@$#@$$@ i dont have money. if someone has, is it my problem?
please people assess the situation and let me know about whether i should have any hope here?
I though i would not name them as it would damage the repute and also might get my child's name involved somewhere (if i goto media etc etc). its American International School.
Are these the rights we have in HK (as parents of kids who need schooling and as individuals who dont have fancy lawyers or papers to put policies)? I feel so weak.........
howardcoombs
Registered User
Is there any reason that you are keeping their name confidential still?
Name and Shame works wonders sometimes.
Name and Shame works wonders sometimes.
TheQuasimother
Registered User
The school is being absolutely unprofessional.
If the deadline falls on the day you paid up then, by my limited experience of international schools and ESF, that is how it is. They can't say that you are on the waitlist. We had DC call us on the last day of the acceptance to chase up whether or not we wanted our spot. So, ABSOLUTELY unprofessional of the administration department of the American International.
Keep at it! We're all behind you! Good Luck!
If the deadline falls on the day you paid up then, by my limited experience of international schools and ESF, that is how it is. They can't say that you are on the waitlist. We had DC call us on the last day of the acceptance to chase up whether or not we wanted our spot. So, ABSOLUTELY unprofessional of the administration department of the American International.
Keep at it! We're all behind you! Good Luck!
rs2000, i have a few suggestions:
first of all, if you were a man i would say 'grow some balls'. the way you argue here in a very convoluted way, your whole tone of your postings, that facts that slowly appear over the course of your 10 postings, all this makes me cringe and tells me that you are not a very calm person who can think calm and clearly. stay calm, analyze the situation with a clear head. it will help you and your health.
on the case, we just learned in your last posting (a bit late but thanks for telling us):
a) the school offered you a spot if you pay before 20th june
b) on 20th june they sent you an email saying the rescind the offer
c) you then went ahead, transferred the money anyway (why??? they already told you that the seat is gone!) to force them to give you a seat, which of course they can't because they had already taken back their offer
d) now they keep your money with the argument that you paid for the waiting list
my initial conclusion:
- by telling you on the phone that the seat is gone, they have clearly and indisputably rescinded their offer (why you transferred the money anyway will remain a mystery to me forever)
- yes, it is very unprofessional from the school to give away your seat before the 20th june without giving you a chance to pay and redeem the original offer – but it’s not illegal. In contract law, one party can rescind their offer at any time before it was taken up and the contract was confirmed.
my questions to you:
- Was there any interaction between you (or your family) and the school from 13th june to 19th june?
- When they told you on the phone on 20th june that the seat is gone, did anyone tell you that if you pay anyway, they would consider this as a downpayment for waiting list? Or did anyone tell you that the school has a policy that any payment that is made after the seats are gone, would be considered as a downpayment for the waiting list?
If the answer to the above two questions is ‘No’ and ‘No’, then the school has clearly not made a new offer to you for a waiting list spot and has to return the deposit to you (with interest if they pay late). However, in this case you need to send a letter to the school, lay down the argument like above and give them a deadline (e.g. one week?) to return the deposit and clearly tell them what happens if they pay late (e.g. interest of x% p.a.). Write this letter today and send it by registered mail.
And for gods sake, stay calm and level-headed.
first of all, if you were a man i would say 'grow some balls'. the way you argue here in a very convoluted way, your whole tone of your postings, that facts that slowly appear over the course of your 10 postings, all this makes me cringe and tells me that you are not a very calm person who can think calm and clearly. stay calm, analyze the situation with a clear head. it will help you and your health.
on the case, we just learned in your last posting (a bit late but thanks for telling us):
a) the school offered you a spot if you pay before 20th june
b) on 20th june they sent you an email saying the rescind the offer
c) you then went ahead, transferred the money anyway (why??? they already told you that the seat is gone!) to force them to give you a seat, which of course they can't because they had already taken back their offer
d) now they keep your money with the argument that you paid for the waiting list
my initial conclusion:
- by telling you on the phone that the seat is gone, they have clearly and indisputably rescinded their offer (why you transferred the money anyway will remain a mystery to me forever)
- yes, it is very unprofessional from the school to give away your seat before the 20th june without giving you a chance to pay and redeem the original offer – but it’s not illegal. In contract law, one party can rescind their offer at any time before it was taken up and the contract was confirmed.
my questions to you:
- Was there any interaction between you (or your family) and the school from 13th june to 19th june?
- When they told you on the phone on 20th june that the seat is gone, did anyone tell you that if you pay anyway, they would consider this as a downpayment for waiting list? Or did anyone tell you that the school has a policy that any payment that is made after the seats are gone, would be considered as a downpayment for the waiting list?
If the answer to the above two questions is ‘No’ and ‘No’, then the school has clearly not made a new offer to you for a waiting list spot and has to return the deposit to you (with interest if they pay late). However, in this case you need to send a letter to the school, lay down the argument like above and give them a deadline (e.g. one week?) to return the deposit and clearly tell them what happens if they pay late (e.g. interest of x% p.a.). Write this letter today and send it by registered mail.
And for gods sake, stay calm and level-headed.
I won't be like MateMate and tell you grow some balls! But MateMate has a point.
I just recognized your name from the other thread. So you're dealing with this ridiculous school problem, plus a newborn, plus a difficult older child, plus a new helper who's not quite working out! It's understandable why you are so upset and frazzled.
Before you contact anyone -- the school, the small claims tribunal, the education dept -- you have to make sure that you have all your facts straight.
Write up a chronological list of what was said, by whom, and when. Clearly state how you were wronged. And then clearly state what you want done -- do you just want your deposit back and that's it?
Write up something that is one page long, conscise, factual and to the point.
It must be a hard time for you. Is there any clear-headed person who can help you look over your notes? Is this something a spouse or maybe a legally-minded friend can help you with?
If you have a legit complaint, you don't want them to dismiss it because you seem emotional or erratic to them.
I just recognized your name from the other thread. So you're dealing with this ridiculous school problem, plus a newborn, plus a difficult older child, plus a new helper who's not quite working out! It's understandable why you are so upset and frazzled.
Before you contact anyone -- the school, the small claims tribunal, the education dept -- you have to make sure that you have all your facts straight.
Write up a chronological list of what was said, by whom, and when. Clearly state how you were wronged. And then clearly state what you want done -- do you just want your deposit back and that's it?
Write up something that is one page long, conscise, factual and to the point.
It must be a hard time for you. Is there any clear-headed person who can help you look over your notes? Is this something a spouse or maybe a legally-minded friend can help you with?
If you have a legit complaint, you don't want them to dismiss it because you seem emotional or erratic to them.
Hi All,
Thanks for all your inputs. As Gracey mentioned above, there is a lot going on around here and It is sometime making me very very frustrated. I have been talking to them, emailing them and have been seeing them bahving like a**holes and coming up with new excuses everyday.
first of all, the above listed facts are all true, except that they did not even mail me to tell that they have given the vacant seat to someone else.
I was in the bank and about to transfer money on 20th June, I called them to tell that we have accepted the offer and wil pay the deposit shortly. I heard a innocent voice telling me that sorry we are full. I explained the whole story again and obviously was VERY upset. In order to refute the claim that I have not paid within time, I went ahead and paid. I later mailed and called them the same day and argued several times that they cant just take the offer back.
(i know the above behavior might not be the best course of action but if you imagine yourself standing in the queue of the cashier and suddenly being told that you dont have ANY option for the school year starting in 2 months....)
Nobody clarified to me that day that I will be paying for being put on the waiting list and my idea was to just make them realize there blunder and get a confirmed seat for my kid.
In the end , they did not agree and I just went ahead and pursued other options and schools (you can again imagine the frustration I have been through in the past 2.5 weeks)
I have asked around but I havent been able to find a person who is a legal expert or is experienced enough to help me put up my case. Please if someone here can help me, it would be great. I would be greatful if you could read up my leter and application for the small claims, education department and also to the school. I will be really greatful if someone can just proof read my letter and give his/her valuable suggestions.
Thanks again for the support.................
Thanks for all your inputs. As Gracey mentioned above, there is a lot going on around here and It is sometime making me very very frustrated. I have been talking to them, emailing them and have been seeing them bahving like a**holes and coming up with new excuses everyday.
first of all, the above listed facts are all true, except that they did not even mail me to tell that they have given the vacant seat to someone else.
I was in the bank and about to transfer money on 20th June, I called them to tell that we have accepted the offer and wil pay the deposit shortly. I heard a innocent voice telling me that sorry we are full. I explained the whole story again and obviously was VERY upset. In order to refute the claim that I have not paid within time, I went ahead and paid. I later mailed and called them the same day and argued several times that they cant just take the offer back.
(i know the above behavior might not be the best course of action but if you imagine yourself standing in the queue of the cashier and suddenly being told that you dont have ANY option for the school year starting in 2 months....)
Nobody clarified to me that day that I will be paying for being put on the waiting list and my idea was to just make them realize there blunder and get a confirmed seat for my kid.
In the end , they did not agree and I just went ahead and pursued other options and schools (you can again imagine the frustration I have been through in the past 2.5 weeks)
I have asked around but I havent been able to find a person who is a legal expert or is experienced enough to help me put up my case. Please if someone here can help me, it would be great. I would be greatful if you could read up my leter and application for the small claims, education department and also to the school. I will be really greatful if someone can just proof read my letter and give his/her valuable suggestions.
Thanks again for the support.................
I have drafted a letter that I plan to send to the school tomorrow.
if anyone can pls kindly proofread it, i will be very thankful.
as a token of appreciation, I would offer some percentage of the refund when it happens too (this offcourse in no way justifies the help but its just to express my thanks)
pls if you have a few mins, pm me your contant or message me here
if anyone can pls kindly proofread it, i will be very thankful.
as a token of appreciation, I would offer some percentage of the refund when it happens too (this offcourse in no way justifies the help but its just to express my thanks)
pls if you have a few mins, pm me your contant or message me here
Going back to the legal diagram of offer and acceptance, I think unless there are more facts missing, you have a case. When you gave them the deposit, it was in response to their rescinded offer (and you can argue whether or not it was properly rescinded considering you were the one who called them and not the other way around when they told you the class was full), and unless they specifically told you paying the deposit would be considered paying a deposit to be held on the waitlist, they did not make you a new offer. It does not sound like they told you this. Therefore, you made them an offer:
Offer: You pay the deposit, in exchange for an immediate acceptance. (important that it's contingent on immediate, because it sounds like they later tried to offer you a spot)
Acceptance: None.
They didn't accept your offer, so there was no contract and they should return the deposit. Again, an oversimplification, but I think this is a fair argument on your side.
I sympathize with you and why you paid, because I have also dealt with paperwork errors in my daughter's school, including them thinking an application I submitted for my child was for an entire year earlier than it was supposed to be (hence them sending me a letter right after I applied saying the class was full and I was on the waitlist). Since you had both a confirmation letter and confirmation email, I might have assumed, as you did, that the person on the phone was just a confused receptionist and decided to go with the official paperwork/email.
Offer: You pay the deposit, in exchange for an immediate acceptance. (important that it's contingent on immediate, because it sounds like they later tried to offer you a spot)
Acceptance: None.
They didn't accept your offer, so there was no contract and they should return the deposit. Again, an oversimplification, but I think this is a fair argument on your side.
I sympathize with you and why you paid, because I have also dealt with paperwork errors in my daughter's school, including them thinking an application I submitted for my child was for an entire year earlier than it was supposed to be (hence them sending me a letter right after I applied saying the class was full and I was on the waitlist). Since you had both a confirmation letter and confirmation email, I might have assumed, as you did, that the person on the phone was just a confused receptionist and decided to go with the official paperwork/email.
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Hi all,
If you think i am asking for a bit too much, may be I shall go ahead and send them the letter
i think it would be very nice to have some read my letter from a legal point of view in order to check if it mentions the facts in the most clear, concise and strong way.............
Thanks!
If you think i am asking for a bit too much, may be I shall go ahead and send them the letter
i think it would be very nice to have some read my letter from a legal point of view in order to check if it mentions the facts in the most clear, concise and strong way.............
Thanks!
Hi miran
i have sent a letter to the school on friday and I have not heard anything back yet. I also asked education bureau officer . he said he emailed the school and the school said they are "discussing" and will get back to him.
but seems he will take the "school decision" as final and will let me know. seems he is not going to push them or anything.
and the school always say they are "discussing" and then later refuse to refund when I check again. this has been going on for past 2 weeks now.
my last resort is small claims tribunal and i will file my case there next week if I dont hear anything by friday.
the thing is that school principal and senior staff is on holiday (i can imagine them going back home , now that the school is closed for summers), i think may be its those stupid ladies in the staff are thinking about all those idiotic, frustrating and ever-changing arguments everytime and then refusing since they dont want to accept the "blunder".
i get annoyed when they say "well admission is first-come-first-serve"...meaning, you get acceptance letter and then whoever pays first gets it.....
anyways, i am waiting to see what they say.....i am 99% sure they will give the same excuse to the education bureau officer..so i am mentally preparing myself to file my case next week into small claims tribunal
i have sent a letter to the school on friday and I have not heard anything back yet. I also asked education bureau officer . he said he emailed the school and the school said they are "discussing" and will get back to him.
but seems he will take the "school decision" as final and will let me know. seems he is not going to push them or anything.
and the school always say they are "discussing" and then later refuse to refund when I check again. this has been going on for past 2 weeks now.
my last resort is small claims tribunal and i will file my case there next week if I dont hear anything by friday.
the thing is that school principal and senior staff is on holiday (i can imagine them going back home , now that the school is closed for summers), i think may be its those stupid ladies in the staff are thinking about all those idiotic, frustrating and ever-changing arguments everytime and then refusing since they dont want to accept the "blunder".
i get annoyed when they say "well admission is first-come-first-serve"...meaning, you get acceptance letter and then whoever pays first gets it.....
anyways, i am waiting to see what they say.....i am 99% sure they will give the same excuse to the education bureau officer..so i am mentally preparing myself to file my case next week into small claims tribunal
Not having principal or senior staff around is not an excuse. If the school were transparent they would have just said - "the decision makers are not in town and that they would revert on your case in X weeks time". Instead they have told you upfront that they would not be returning the deposit.
All the best for your filing.
All the best for your filing.
Hi All!
News news news!
I got an email from the school and they attached the deposit slip. They quietly gave my money back
I am sooo happy and relieved
i think the email from education bureau office did the trick. this is the same lasy who kept repeating the same stuff for 1 hour last week and was acting as if I am nuts to have asked for a refund
anyways...i am glad it all ended well. very happy
Thanks for all your support !!!!!
News news news!
I got an email from the school and they attached the deposit slip. They quietly gave my money back
I am sooo happy and relieved
i think the email from education bureau office did the trick. this is the same lasy who kept repeating the same stuff for 1 hour last week and was acting as if I am nuts to have asked for a refund
anyways...i am glad it all ended well. very happy
Thanks for all your support !!!!!