Will we ever leave Hong Kong?

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I have an of Aussie friend who is an RN and has no Cantonese.
She sat the exams and works at Matilda.
 
Matty, I guess everyone comes with their own experiences and makes judgements on what is acceptable to them. We came from Sydney and were spoilt having only a 10 minute commute into the city. For us a 50 minute commute would be intolerable if it were something we thought we might be stuck with doing for a long time. Doing it for a year or two is one thing but indefinitely,wow, think of all the time you lose when you could be with your kids or family. A 30 minute commute to Sydney is one thing but a 50 minute commute here, well that adds 40 minutes extra to time away from family every day and given that most of us have husbands that already work long hours I'd not want to do it for long.

We currently live on the Southside but will probably move to CWB shortly. We are not going to enjoy the commute but as I said, i know we won't be here for more than another 2-3 years so I can live with it particularly as we'll be able to get a nice backyard etc.

I also agree with Carang's earlier comment about going home. We used to go home only at christmas for 3 weeks. Now we've bought a house we can go back to (instead of living with parents which is difficult at the best of times!) a few times a year and stay 6 weeks at a time. I hope that this will make up for a lot of the things I miss about home until we can return there permanently one day. But again, it's not ideal as it means being away from my husband for quite a long time so just the kids can have a more normal life with the chance to play on grass, breathe clean air etc. In HK more than anywhere else I've lived i've found it's a real question of priorities and compromise. It's just not possible to have it all here. Even the super wealthy don't get to breathe clean air and see blue skies! Though of course they can buy just about all the other things I miss- big houses, big backyards etc.
 
carang said:
shenzheniffer,

you COULD live out in sai kung, get a cheaper place and buy a used car. we've done it.

we are paying less than $20k for 2100' home. 5 bed, 4 bath, garden, 2 car parks.

we bought an el cheapo car ($8000) and i use it to commute daily to tsing yi. it still works out to be MUCH cheaper than most places. it takes me 45 minutes door-to-door.

ideally, i would love to live a little closer to work, but that is just not in the cards. i would rather be on the road an extra 20 minutes per day and enjoy the space we have.

it is a trade-off though.
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I think it's very interesting that people in HK tend to be a bit more open about money than where I'm from. So, having said that, let me just be really open here and hopefully without facing much judgment. From another post, Cara, I think I remember you saying that your house cost around $14K/month rent? Is that right? I don't have the post right here so I can't remember correctly.

My husband makes 20K/month which is actually a decent wage here in HK for a local HK person who does not work in Central, own their own business or work in the financial sector. I have a friend who worked for one of the top newspapers in the city full-time with a byline and an editing position and she only made 10K/month. She worked at least 50 hours/week and many times more (she worked so much it was like she just disappeared or something). I recently went back to work but I work part-time so my wage is a bit hard to factor into the equation sometimes. But, let's just say we were trying to get by on 20K and rent a 14K apartment, plus drive our car and eat, pay utilities, buy diapers and save money. 6K in HK doesn't equal much.

Now, I'm thinking that there are cheaper places in Sai Kung if you settle for less room. Is that right? But, if you're settling for less room, then what is the payoff of living so far away. It's not that Sai Kung isn't beautiful and a desirable place to live, because it is. But, can you see what I'm saying. It's really not do-able for some people.

These are just the facts. Many expats here are making at least 20K month (if you're a NET teaching with the government program the lowest starting salary is 22K, I believe but it goes up substantially from there, for example). On top of that salary, receive at least a housing allowance. Everyone's situation is different but if the largest wage-earner in the home is bringing in a salary that is comparable to the "normal" salaries in HK and/or the wife does not work, moving out into the country to get away and facing a higher rent rate for a bigger space with more green and then the added stress of transportation can actually put a real, tangible stress on a family's finances.

The cost of buying a car in HK is relatively lower than anywhere else--plus the quality of cars is better because most people don't drive their cars until they're run into the ground in the first place. But, as a expat friend who has lived in HK for 25 years and raised his children here told us, the cost of licensing, insuring, registering, maintaining, parking and putting petrol in a car in HK equals out to the same amount of money you would spend if you took a taxi everywhere you went in that car. So, if you can afford to take a taxi everywhere you would drive a car, then having a car is affordable. I'm just talking the financial aspect of owning a car--not the convenience factor. Personally, we cannot afford to take a taxi very often anywhere. I don't think we are out of the norm as far as "normal" goes here in HK (but expat "normal" may be different).

Anyway, thank you for letting me indulge my napkin back calculations here. :tongue:
 
we pay just less than $16K.

when i say it is cheaper, of course it is all relative. we moved here from Db, where our last flat was $21k.

we have NOT always paid that much. when i came to hk (i was 22 yrs old at the time and knew NO ONE), I worked 5 jobs just to make $15K... so i KNOW what living on a shoestring budget is like. from my $15K i had to sent $6K back to canada to pay for student loans.

when i say living in sai kung is "cheap" of course it is all relative. but you can still get a flat in a village house around here for about $5k, maybe less. you don't HAVE to have a car, we do for where we live. i got by just fine for 12 years in hk without a car, and i've lived/stayed about everywhere... including: clearwater bay, hung hom, jordan, sha tin, mid-levels, jardine's lookout (crashing on someone's sofa!), kwun tong to name but a few. petrol costs a bomb, but we don't pay for parking where we live, licencing costs depend on the size of the motor, but can be as low as $3k per year. insurance depends on the make of the car. for us, if i don't drive to work, it would take me over 2 hours to get there. that is because i live REALLY far out. to drive takes me 45 minutes. if i lived closer to town, my rent would go up. granted i wouldn't need the car so much, but the rent would go up (for the same square footage) to the point that there is no way we could afford it.

the other thing for us is that we run a dog boarding business from our home. the dogs live with us in our home, not in kennels in the back garden. we started this in an $6K flat in db (864')... we rapidly needed more space for the number of bookings we were getting. so, we moved to a larger garden flat in db (961') with a small garden. but again, with 2 kids, a helper, hubby & I + 12 dogs or so, we very quickly realised that we needed more space. we could not afford db and so ended up renting in the country park in sai kung. we are again running out of space. but our problem is that the sizes of the houses won't get bigger unless we look at doubling our rent (minimum). neither of us can get our heads around paying $30k/month... to us, that seems ridiculous.

but, thanka, my remarks were mostly directed at those who ARE getting huge allowances and still complain that they can't get what they want.... you should read some forums, "i've ONLY got a $75K housing allowance and i can't find ANYTHING decent!" makes me wanna smack 'em upside the head!

ps> if you are interested, i can have a look around for something in your price range...what would you be willing to spend on rent and i'll see if i can find anything closer to town with a roof or garden area...the flat woudl be 700'...
 
pps> EVERYONE in our village is VERY open about what we are paying in rent... NO ONE wants the rents to start going up... if i know my nextdoor neighbour just reneg her lease and is paying $17.5K (which she is) it gives me a better idea what to expect when reneg mine (which i'm doing now). she also showed me around her entire house so that i could see the condition of her and be able to compare it to the condition of mine...(we are almost all expats in the village)
 
carang said:
but, thanka, my remarks were mostly directed at those who ARE getting huge allowances and still complain that they can't get what they want.... you should read some forums, "i've ONLY got a $75K housing allowance and i can't find ANYTHING decent!" makes me wanna smack 'em upside the head!

ps> if you are interested, i can have a look around for something in your price range...what would you be willing to spend on rent and i'll see if i can find anything closer to town with a roof or garden area...the flat woudl be 700'...
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Thanks Carang. Yes, people do get that $75K/month allowance and then their pay. I wouldn't be able to accurately know who on this forum is in that category. I'd hope that there also people on this forum that are more in a moderate income bracket or even like us that are in a lower income bracket.

From what you describe, your situation is quite special in that both you and your husband are self-employed. I do know other people in similar situations but most of the people I know who are local to HK or live a more local, middle-class lifestyle (us), do work for someone else and that means they have to go to where their work is.

Of course, as you said, you fully understand that after working so hard to make ends meet in the beginning. I think being married with children also ads a different element and I'd guess you could agree. As a single person and even when I was dating and engaged it was no big deal to be working several jobs, going to school, having time for a social life and juggling life--because life revolved around me and what I wanted to do. After marriage and a child as well as getting older, life is much more complicated.

Yes, you do have to commute for work but again, you have more flexibility as you can set your own hours and if things in Tsing Yi were truly not working out you may even be able to change offices (not saying it would be easy or without sacrifice ($) but it would be possible). Personally, I think your setup is enviable (except the dog part as I do not like dogs).

We live in a village house that is about 600 ' with a balcony and a roof. We pay less than 4K/month. We do not live in Sai Kung but live sufficiently close to the MTR as well as bus routes to where we need to go. The affordability of the place where we live is not a fact that is wasted upon us. We have thought about moving to a place with cleaner air and more space. We've talked it through so many times but honestly, the price and convenience of where we live is not something we are willing to give up.

Our life isn't complicated by helpers and cars right now. There was a man in my hometown who walked everywhere he went and my friend's dad once commented, "That man has never known misery because he has never owned a car and he has never been married" :tongue: Anyway we're trying to avoid those expenses as long as possible. We're trying to make choices that put us in the most advantageous financial position possible even though it means we don't get everything we want. With getting "everything we want" as one other poster pointed out, you can also end up having to keep up just to maintain the status quo. Even though we work hard to keep our financial obligations low, I've also realized how easy it is for us here in HK to get sucked into building up a lifestyle that then becomes like a voracious monster that you keep having to feed loads of cash too. We just prefer having a cushion of finances as much as possible and not committing ourselves to anything that may become financial unsustainable in the future.

Again, your housing set-up sounds like it would be quite nice.
 
congratulations for yr pregnancy!

i think HK is great for living. Raising a child might be a bit difficult (limited space, school competition, pollution etc) comparing to the US. But it's a safe place for them to grow up. we moved to china from hk as my husband changed job. i worry about kidnapping every time i take my baby out. i have to look over my shoulder and i worry sick. there is no good school here. compare to china, HK is a wonderful place.

enjoy it. enjoy your pregnancy. so much to plan and looking forward to. understand you have a good family back in the US. but you will start yours in HK. you can take your baby back home to see them often.

p.s. cheating husband and prostitution is the same all over the world. Hong Kong is not a special place for it.
 
Today, I found this old thread I started back in 2009. As an update, I just had my second child here in HK. And this morning, had a 'fight' with my husband about going back to the US. This stemmed from his stumbling home drunk last night after being compelled to go grab drinks with a boss, as is somehow the only thing people in finance think to do as male bonding, and being that he is exhausted from our newborn and his really brilliant decision not to eat and just drink instead, passing out without showering in our bed and then pulling the comforter over our newborn's head - we are cosleeping. I thankfully heard her muffled cries and saved her. When I yelled at him because of what he had done, he basically almost rolled on top of her. The next morning he had to be told about what he did, as he apparently had blacked it out. Then, being hung over, could not drag himself up to play with our toddler for 10 minutes before work as he usually does. Not that I wanted him to - he stunk of alcohol.

Reading my old thread was so disheartening because absolutely nothing has changed since I posted 2 years ago. My husband is still stubborn as ever and basically does not care that I want to go home, because he doesn't want to go home. So here are my new questions:

1. What can I do about his behavior w/r/t drinking? I get the excuse all the time that it's 'necessary' for the job. I just don't buy that anymore.

2. I don't take divorce or separation lightly by any means, but at what point do I say, well, we are not compatible at all - we don't want to live in the same country, and we certainly don't have similar priorities. I'm not all about his career, I'm about my kids now, and that doesn't seem to mesh. Am I stupid for sticking around?

To be fair, he is not a cheater, works hard to provide for us, is generally a good dad to our toddler and very hands on about playing with her. It is really just the drinking and this issue of going back to the US that are causing my heartache.
 
No one can tell you wether you should get divorced or not. That is a decision you have to make for yourself. Things to consider however, is his drinking more important than his family and does it threaten their safety, as with the cosleeping episode it sounds like it might.

I don't take divorce lightly either, coming from a broken home myself, but you have to ask yourself is seeing their father "pass out" drunk healthy or what you want for your children?

I would suggest you talk to your husband sincerely about your concerns and ask him if seeing their Dad stinking drunk is the memories he wants for his children as well. Maybe he needs a wake up call in regards to the impression he is leaving for his children.
 
Of course my situation and yours are drastically different. But, there was a point in my husband's and my relationship where I did leave and go back to the States and considered never coming back. I took our 8-month-old and went for a "break"--lived with my mom and sister. I think it was good for my husband to come to his senses as he said he missed us all terribly while we were gone and didn't feel like life was worth much without us. I say, talk to him--but that's assuming you haven't already--I'm thinking that you probably have done a fair amount of telling him how you feel and he simply is not getting it or doesn't care to get it. In that case, pack your bags and take off for awhile--it will be refreshing for you to be back in the States with family and friends and will give your children a fun break and it will give him time to reconsider his priorities. Be prepared, however, that he may simply just make the decision that you and the family aren't worth him changing his life for--that is extremely sad but it does happen. I have a friend who has a kindergartner and a toddler and it got to the point where she asked her husband to choose whether he wanted his family or he wanted World of Warcraft (the video game) and he chose the latter. Some men are dumb that way. I sure hope your husband isn't.
 
sorry to hear about your situation. my husband and i talk about moving to the states eventually. as much as i'd like to (i'm local chinese and my husband is an american expat), i currently have too many responsibilities in HK to even think about going anywhere other than here. it seems disheartening that your husband isn't even able to keep an open mind about future options. sounds like there might even be some other underlying issues about his feelings of moving back other than financial??

thanka's idea sounds terrific though. a much needed break with close family and friends (with the kids!) back home sounds like the correct remedy.
 
erina320 said:
Wow!! That's sad.
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I know. Hate to say it but some men are total idiots. But, it's not any different, in my opinion, to choose work or money over family. It's one thing to work because you need the money but some men (and women) are addicted to their work and climbing the ladder. Anyway...
 
thanka2 said:
Hate to say it but some men are total idiots. But, it's not any different, in my opinion, to choose work or money over family. It's one thing to work because you need the money but some men (and women) are addicted to their work and climbing the ladder. Anyway...
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Yup, many men (and many women too) are idiots, but lets not expand the scope and make this guy into a monster he is not.

To be fair, he is not a cheater, works hard to provide for us, is generally a good dad to our toddler and very hands on about playing with her. It is really just the drinking and this issue of going back to the US that are causing my heartache.
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This guy in question likes his drink with the boys and doesnt want to leave Hong Kong. This is not a crime nor is it IMO reason for a split. There may be other things not yet said, but based on what we know, this guy is not a bad guy.

It doesn't help that he is in finance and would have no job back home, whereas his career is soaring out here, and that with all the damage from the economic crisis, violent gun deaths and other 'problems' with the US he always has something to argue, logically, against going home.
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Why would anyone want to leave a successful career here to face a no-job situation in a place that is far more dangerous than here. For me and my family, logic trumps heart.
 
NewMommie said:
Today, I found this old thread I started back in 2009. As an update, I just had my second child here in HK. And this morning, had a 'fight' with my husband about going back to the US. This stemmed from his stumbling home drunk last night after being compelled to go grab drinks with a boss, as is somehow the only thing people in finance think to do as male bonding, and being that he is exhausted from our newborn and his really brilliant decision not to eat and just drink instead, passing out without showering in our bed and then pulling the comforter over our newborn's head - we are cosleeping. I thankfully heard her muffled cries and saved her. When I yelled at him because of what he had done, he basically almost rolled on top of her. The next morning he had to be told about what he did, as he apparently had blacked it out.
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I can't give you any advice about your marriage. However, all of the information I have read on co-sleeping expressly recommend against

1. co-sleeping with a baby under 3 months old
2. co-sleeping after drinking alcohol

If I have some drinks after work I'll sleep in the spare room rather than risk any accidents with our (occasionally) co-sleeping daughter. I would think this is a fairly easy change to make/enforce - but doesn't address the underlying issue if you feel he is drinking too much.
 
Thanka--wow, really, some guy chose a video game over his family? That is REALLY sad. I hope that NewMommie's husband comes to his senses soon because it really sounds like you're unhappy. It doesn't sound fair. Hopefully you can have a real talk and come to some kind of compromise. HK has a big drinking culture and it takes very strong people to avoid that world. Too much temptation. Yes, there are cheaters all over the place, but HK is set up for it for sure. No last calls!
 
howardcoombs said:
Yup, many men (and many women too) are idiots, but lets not expand the scope and make this guy into a monster he is not.
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You didn't read where that quote came from. I was speaking of my friend's husband who left the family so he could play video games. That was idiotic.


This guy in question likes his drink with the boys and doesnt want to leave Hong Kong. This is not a crime nor is it IMO reason for a split. There may be other things not yet said, but based on what we know, this guy is not a bad guy.
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Hmmmm....no, it's not a crime, but his priorities are probably not in the right place. When you get married and become a father--especially when you become a father--your priorities need to change if you still want to remain married and be part of your kids' lives. No one said he was a "bad guy"--there are a lot of "good guys" who just have their priorities mixed up. And there are even "good guys" who just have their priorities mixed up for a time in their lives and then straighten themselves out.

Why would anyone want to leave a successful career here to face a no-job situation in a place that is far more dangerous than here. For me and my family, logic trumps heart.
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Because that person makes his wife and children's happiness priority #1, that's why. Just because this family goes back to the States does not automatically mean they are going to live in a dangerous place or face a no-job situation. There are a lot of factors that come into play. This guy doesn't seem to care about any of that--he just likes this ladder climbing expedition he's on (hence he goes to drink with the boss to kiss a** and try to get brownie points--that game).
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banane76 said:
Thanka--wow, really, some guy chose a video game over his family? That is REALLY sad.
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Yes, he did. And left his wife and kids in a world of hurt. She is doing better now and has moved on. He didn't deserve them anyway. But the truth is, he was addicted to that game. And in the same way, some men are addicted to their jobs for whatever reasons. There is a parallel.
 
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