Why Chinese Mothers are Superior...??

nicolejoy

nicolejoy

Registered User
I'm surprised that this article hasn't come up on here yet. I know it's been going around a lot the past few days and causing a lot of controversy.

Here's the article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...9713528698754.html?mod=WSJ_hp_us_mostpop_read

Was wondering everyone's thoughts on it? Particularly the thoughts of people who are Chinese. Were you raised like this? Would you want to raise your kids like this?

As a Westerner married to a Chinese guy, I first heard about this article through my husband's family. His parents think it's awesome (although my husband wasn't raised QUITE as strictly as the article) - I think it's verging on abusive.

I don't think it's EVER right to "break" your children into submission or to do things like calling them garbage or (I'm extrapolating here) to slap them on the face or make them feel like your love/affection towards them is dependent on their success.

I do think that there are values that Western parents can learn from the Chinese parenting style, and with my mixed children, my husband and I want to parent them together using a mixture of values from both of our values. I do think that it's important to encourage our kids to do their best in everything they do, and I think that it's ok to be disappointed in our kids grades if we know that they can do better. BUT I do think that kids NEED to be well rounded - they need to have friends, they need to have room to make mistakes and learn from them, they need to be able to have hobbies and activities they want to do "just because" and for no academic reason.

Anyway - I could go on and on about this article, it really got me fired up a bit ;) Just wanted to put it out there for some of your thoughts as well.
 
Amy Chua's parenting style is nothing more than her own style. She is perpetuating a stereotype. It is unfortunate that her article takes such a smug, extreme tone because there are a number of valid points in her article. It is important for children to learn discipline and perseverance and to try hard.

Here's another interesting article which comments on Amy Chua's article: http://washingtonexaminer.com/local...l-parenting-straightens-fretful-mothers-spine. Amy Chua probably does have a point when she says that parents worry too much about our children's fragile self-esteem. I would never treat my child like she treats hers, but equally you don't want to raise a child who goes onto American Idol thinking that they can sing when they clearly cannot!
 
my mom was the typical chinese mom, but then i ended up bouncing the other way and quitting piano and ballet as a child since I just couldn't stand all the pushing, etc. it helped that i grew up in an international school environment where all the values learnt were completely opposite to what was being taught at home.

i think sometimes my mom really wonders why she sent me to an international school hahahah
 
It was in the WSJ on Saturday, but you should take the article with a grain of salt as Amy Chua's book was published this week and controversy sells books. Have a look at the WSJ comments page - almost 4000 comments last time I checked!
 
Have just read the article and could write an essay about the assumptions made about Westerners and their motivations and reasoning, (our family is totally Western, but not American) but my overall thoughts were that while I totally agree persistence is something to be encouraged in children, pretty much all the rest of it is pure crap. For a start, I don't define a successful person as one that gets top grades, plays a musical instrument, earns more money etc etc. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want them to do all these things and try their hardest at what they do, but the whole academic excellence at any cost is beyond me. If everyone was meant to get A grades there wouldn't be any grading system.

Cultural differences sure, but I would never want anyone to behave like this mother does - how is screaming, threatening, withholding basic needs like going to the toilet, food and water in anyway behaviour to be encouraged. She sounds like a toddler.... and I do not expect my kids to behave that way!! Clearly though her's do (from what she says about her daughters response to the piano example) I would see that as a failure as a parent, not that my child didn't get A's in every subject.

And Nicole like you say I think a successful person (not just a child) is one who is happy, with a wide range of interests and has an inner peace. If they also have a great job that they enjoy what it pays does not matter as long as they have enough to have a comfortable life. Overall I think my measurement of my success as a parent is based on how I view a successful adult and as our definitions are so different it is hard to take any good out of her approach. Plus the statement 'nothing is fun unless you are good at it'' is so different from my own expectation and experience that 'learning to do something is half the fun''- maybe that's why encouragement and support (without being 'soft') is my preferred approach rather than abuse and punishment.
I am interested to see what others think, especially those who are Chinese. Many Chinese I know ended up in jobs they hated because of parental expectation/pressure and doubt they would think that's a good thing, but maybe that's just my cultural perspective talking...
 
And for the Chinese children who don't make the A marks in their classes in all that but are brilliant in their own right (the artists, the entrepreneurs, the innovators) life is rough here in Hong Kong. I believe that my husband is extremely intelligent but he was beaten down all his life by his parents who never offered praise but only criticism and condemnation. They also stopped giving him physical attention/affection (hugs, kisses, pats on the back) when he was about 6-years-old. Guess they thought it was time for him to "Become a man." It's really sad for my parents-in-law because even when my husband did excel at things (and he did) they were completely blind to see it--thus, they don't know who he really is and neither does he know who they are. There is a HUGE generation gap in their family that keeps parents and children isolated from one another and a lot of it has to do with this cultural expectation that you have to "be tough" on your kids or they will become "worthless individuals" in society. Children withdraw from their parents. I can't speak for any other Chinese kids here but when I first met my husband he was one of the most "emotionally constipated" individuals I'd ever been around. It was so bad that he would have emotions but was so out of touch with what they were that he couldn't express himself--it took a long time for him to allow himself to admit or let himself feel emotions like anger or sadness because he was taught to suppress all of this from his parents. So, when I'm around his family it's very odd--they all have smiley faces on but you could cut the tension with a knife because underneath the surface bubbles a lot of past issues that are never discussed or named. It's like being in a prison of their own making, I think--but I'm sure they wouldn't see it that way.

One of the first comments my husband's father made to me when I first met him was, "My son is so lazy." Here I was, excited to meet his parents and my husband was really excited to introduce me and we were laughing and having a good time and then all of a sudden his dad slapped him in the face with this comment--you should have seen the anger, embarrassment and shame--my husband immediately deflated and was "put back in his place." I was shocked. And for the first few years that was the only comment my father-in-law made to me about my husband. It was and is extremely hurtful and serves no purpose but to demoralize and make sure that the hierarchy is maintained.

So, yes, you can beat your children into submission mentally, emotionally and physically--you can make them live in fear of you--you can produce "prodigy" children by crushing their spirits and turning them into robots (and even to this day, one of the biggest problems in our marriage is that sometimes I feel like my husband responds in a stoic/robotic way to things he should have a little more attachment to) but I don't know, I'd rather have my own children be in touch with their soul and be able to healthily express themselves in a mature manner without fear than have a world-class piano player who makes a ton of cash but lives in a dark, isolated world that I created for him/her.
 
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Problem with Chinese parents is that the like to compare against each other. So if someone is doing something, they feel that their children should do better. My mom always keeps telling me that the son/daughter of Mr. X makes X amount of money, so why I am making so little.

I have a relative whose baby is about the same age as mine. The baby is been taken by his grandma, who apparently play and teach lot of tricks to the 6 month old baby, like counting fingers, touching his noses, etc. So my mom just told me the other day that I am taking care of my baby, but I teach him nothing. That I don't know how to educate my child, who according to her, only knows how to cry. Then told my 6 month old baby (who luckily doesn't understand what she says) that he is a spoiled baby, and know nothing..... I just shut her up telling her that that wasn't any big deal, since my baby will know how to do that sooner or later, and I didn't see the point of teaching him stuff ahead of time.
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Another thing to add, I teach primary students in HK. They are great with "rote learning"--they do great with "monkey see, monkey do" activities but give them some tasks that require a lot of creative thought or comprehension of indirect concepts and they are completely lost.

I've taught from P1 to F8 in Hong Kong and this is a pattern that does not change. This may work for some straight-forward exercises in mathematics for example but how many accountants can one economy support in the future?

This is why the HK government has tried to overhaul the secondary school curriculum and introduce critical thinking into the mix with the NSS courses that focus on cross-disciplinary learning--much akin to the concept of "liberal arts education" in the "West."

As someone who did professional development workshops for two years helping local teachers to prepare for the switch I can tell you the NSS has the local secondary teachers running scared--they are terrified of not having the prop of a a step-by-step lesson plan that they can stand in front of the class and read from, word-by-word because they were never taught or expected to think outside the box--they were only taught to repeat, repeat, repeat and drill, drill, drill until they memorized information. Coming to the article from the WSJ, maybe some of these teachers would have benefited from participating in a school play or two because now they have to join the rest of the world and actually DIRECT them themselves!

Some of them, through training in the local system (from primary school onward--their entire lives) really have no capacity for cross-disciplinary thought--such as understanding how certain social phenomenon affect things in science or how science affects art or how one language can teach you something about mathematics. Their minds are completely compartmentalized because when they were children they were told that there is only one answer for every question and everything is black and white--you just have to work hard enough and you'll figure the answer out. Well, the answers to our world's big problems are not black and white and sometimes "trying hard enough" is not the key. You can try to jam a square peg in a round hole--and keep trying and trying but that doesn't make it fit. In the local educational model, effort=success which does not take into consideration the actual needs of students. Sometimes students need a different style of teaching or more help and the fact is that some students ARE NOT going to excel in a certain area no matter how much you tell them to "try harder."

And I say all this as a westerner who definitely got her share of what the writer describes as "house turned into a warzone" over things I thought I couldn't do but could actually do. My mom pushed me hard but she wasn't a maniac.

Finally, I was at my parents-in-law's house last weekend and I could hear the neighbors (who have two middle-school aged children) fighting and screaming from the time I arrived at around 7 pm until 3 am--and it was over the childrens' school performance. I was a bit concerned and considered calling the police. As a parent, I choose my battles and I can't imagine carrying on for EIGHT HOURS over something like that--where does the peace in your home go to?

This piece of writing is very smug and I think it makes the writer look foolish and ethnocentric. It's one thing to cut down some politically correct barriers--but from this writing I'd say this lady needs some medication and a few sessions of therapy to work through her issues. Just saying...
 
Gataloca said:
Problem with Chinese parents is that the like to compare against each other. So if someone is doing something, they feel that their children should do better. My mom always keeps telling me that the son/daughter of Mr. X makes X amount of money, so why I am making so little.

I have a relative whose baby is about the same age as mine. The baby is been taken by his grandma, who apparently play and teach lot of tricks to the 6 month old baby, like counting fingers, touching his noses, etc. So my mom just told me the other day that I am taking care of my baby, but I teach him nothing. That I don't know how to educate my child, who according to her, only knows how to cry. Then told my 6 month old baby (who luckily doesn't understand what she says) that he is a spoiled baby, and know nothing..... I just shut her up telling her that that wasn't any big deal, since my baby will know how to do that sooner or later, and I didn't see the point of teaching him stuff ahead of time.
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Ha! Sounds like that grandma is teaching a monkey to do tricks (no offense to the baby). Y'know, it doesn't mean anything at all if that kid can wiggle his ears and touch his nose and juggle--it doesn't indicate anything except a bored grandma with nothing else to do but teach the child meaningless tricks like he's preparing to perform on the street for money.

I just have the image of a little baby sitting down at the IFC bridge in Central touching his nose and people throwing coins into a hat for his performance--how sad. My own parents-in-law teach my son those sorts of tricks so he can perform them during Chinese New Year at the family dinners--but beyond that there is no other reason for him to know how to do that sort of thing.

It's actually just showing how insecure the grandparents are that they need to show off what their grandkids can do so they (the grandparents) can get the applause and approval of other relatives--its' not even about the kid. The grandparents just want to look good. Thankfully, the only time they try to teach my son those types of tricks is around the holidays. And don't get me wrong, they teach him some other useful things as well and they do a good job--but those silly little "party tricks"--I wouldn't worry at all about that. Your baby is plenty smart and as I always say when I ask my son to do something like, "Smile for the camera" and he chooses to hide his face--I say, "Well, I guess he isn't a circus monkey afterall"--he has his own mind, he's his own person and he's not willing to do stuff just for performance. I think this is an EXCELLENT thing!
 
I do think the author is being extreme (doubtless to sell her book) but I suspect the answer, as with most of these things, lies somewhere in between the two styles.

I feel like 'western' parenting can be a bit quick to accept that a child is just not good at one thing or does not like doing it and let it slide (of course that's a bit sweeping and not true of everyone!), whereas, as the author says, the feeling of achievement in not being able to do something then practising and then doing it is amazing and is a skill that can be applied in so many areas of life (why it had to be done in one evening I'm not sure, that just seems silly and I think the story is made up!).

It's also now becoming clear through research that heaping too much praise on children, especially when they actually haven't done anything special teaches them not to value any praise they are given so can have the opposite effect on self esteem than the one we wanted by praising them all the time. I would never agree with insulting a child but maybe there's a case for only praising when they do something exceptional.

Also, agree with the other posters that academic grades do not equal success in life or in business, but that's probably a generational thing, I think there was a time where having a degree opened up a vast number of options to an individual who's family might have traditionally been in poorly paid manual employment, degrees are now more common and the workplace is changing and employers are looking for a lot more now in terms of innovation, problem solving and personality, none of which is honed through rote learning.

She is extreme but the article has made me question some of the 'western' values that I take for granted and I think it's never a bad thing if a piece makes you do that.
 
Unfortunately, the parenting style as described by Amy Chua seems to be the most prevalent style utilized here in Hong Kong.
Despite, coming from a Chinese background, I never understood why we choose to adopt this style of parenting.

We are basically robbing our kids of their childhood and forcing them to be adults.

When I was a toddler, I watched cartoons, ate pizza, and played with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles action figures. I'm sure all of you remember those times. Weren't they among the happiest moments of your life? If yes, then why are we denying our own children the very opportunity for them to have their own happy childhood experience?

Sure, I'm no doctor, lawyer, world-renowned pianist, or millionaire. But I'm happy and healthy. I'm employed, married, and have 2 beautiful kids. Isn't that what we're all after? If this means I'm a failure, then so be it.

This reminds me of a time I eavesdropped a conversation between several women in their late-20s or early-30s talking about what extracurricular activity they send their toddlers off to. One lady mentioned that her child has golf lessons every weekend. Golf lessons! For a toddler! Is she preparing him for retirement?!
 
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One thing that I am very interested in is what does this kind of parenting do for the future relationship between the parent and child?

One HUGE difference between my (western) relationship with my parents and my husband's (chinese) relationship with his is that I call my parents, do things with them etc because I like them as people and I enjoy spending time with them. Now that I'm (nearly) 30, I consider myself "raised" already and consider them as my equals. Yes I still "respect" them and ask them advice for things because they have more life experience than me, but if we have an issue where I'm not happy with something they did, I will talk with them about it and they would even apologise to me. In every respect, we are now "friends". We didn't have that kind of relationship when I was five, they were strict when I was growing up but they were always fair and kind about it. They pushed me to do better at school and "forced" me to practice piano - but never "disrespected" me as a person.

My husband on the other hand has been told things like "you're not really my son" and has been slapped across the face. And today his relationship with his parents is a lot more out of "duty" rather than for the enjoyment of it. Yes we do at times enjoy time with his parents, they aren't horrible people. But they're not really "friends" - they will still tell us how to parent our kids, what we should do with our money etc. His mum still opens whatever mail goes to her house, and when a check goes to her place, she will even use part of the money for something that she thinks we should do (although the amount is small so I've never made an issue out of it - but in principle, it drives me crazy!!). But my husband, since he was raised like that, is quite content with that kind of relationship for the most part.

I really struggle with my relationship with my in-laws at times because a lot of these differences, even now that we've been married for six years. I still don't call them "mum" and "dad" because I won't do it because I should - I think those titles are "earned" through a particular relationship that I don't have with them. I often don't feel respected by them - but I know also that while they don't fit my idea of "parents", I don't fit their idea of the dutiful daughter either. They probably see me as a miserable failure ;) We do have an "ok" relationship though - but it's hard to be "close" because you can't change either one of our upbringings and preconceived ideas about what a parent-child relationship should look like...
 
Interesting question NJ, and I think this gets to the very root of it all, they as parents don't want to be liked by their children, they want to be respected, admired, looked up to and looked after but not necessarily liked, and that's not particularly a Chinese thing, think about all the children of wealthy westerners who, for hundreds of years have been brought up by their governesses and their boarding schools, or in poorer families gone out to work at a young age. Children as a product, and they are only worth having if they can do the 'job' they are born to do (earn money, run the family business, inherit the crown ;-). For societies that live several steps closer to poverty it's accepted that children must work hard to support their parents and I think society has been like this for a long, long time. The idea of fulfilment and happiness as an aim in itself is relatively new and originates in a wealthy, more privileged society and I can see why your dh's parents' generation might struggle with it and ultimately reject it.

My mum was English and was horrified by people being overemotional, crying, divorcing, yelling, counselling, hugging, saying things like 'I love you' or complimenting someone were all things she thought 'that there was rather too much of happening these days'. She was certainly not alone in feeling that way. Culturally she would never have yelled at or insulted me but ultimately it's not all that different - the idea that putting your emotion and feelings first is selfish and indulgent is common to both. We loved and respected each other as adults but I'd never, ever have said that to her or expected her to say it to me - I guess you could say I was content with it as your dh is with his parents. BUT, I want more for my children and (perhaps selfishly) I want more from them when they're older in terms of friendship and closeness, hopefully we won't be in any need of financial support... perhaps if that was a prospect I'd be a bit more pushy about his education?
 
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I can't agree more with Nicole- I now value my mum as one of my best friends. In fact it was my mum that said to me after the birth of my first child that she now viewed us as complete equals and friends, there is give and take on both sides. It is definitely something that I hope will be replicated in the relationship I have with my children.
As has been said before, my parents were not a push over by any stretch of the imagination but just wanted me to fulfill my potential whether that was being top of my class or scrapping through and perhaps more importantly for me to be happy. Happiness is unique to the individual but perhaps (as I am western) I think there is more to it than tangibles.

However my husband, who is western, has the same relationship Nicole describes her husband having with his parents with his and in turn my relationship with my in laws is 'formal'. If I didnt remind him he would only speak to his dad on holidays and he only calls his mum weekly out of a sense of duty/ decades of bullying!

This is fascinating....
 
I was raised in a chinese environment and expressive positive emotion just did not exist. We were only praised for bringing home good grade and therefore their affection was conditional. Otherwise it was always : you have to do better, work harder etc... But i do agree that parents nearer the poverty line (like mine were) valued accomplishments more than the 'intangibles' of say happiness.

being extremely poor makes it hard to be happy as so for their offspring to have any chance of happiness- it was through our ability to make money ... so whilst I do understand their intentions, unfortunately I do not have a good relationship with them as we never knew how to talk and its almost impossible to start now .

this is a great thread
 
i'm not sure i would link it to being closer to poverty. i have an EXTREMELY close relationship with my mother. she is really one of my best friends. she grew up the eldest of 5 in a minister's family. they were not destitute but by no means were they even considered middle-class, even though as the town minister, my grandfather was very well-respected in the community. my husband has a similar relationship to his parents that nicole's husband has....one more out of duty than anything. and although i like my MIL, i really feel that there is no respect from her towards me and my role in our family. eg) just today, my kids were fighting, so i separated them and gave them a 5 minute time-out. towards the end of the 5 minutes, i called my youngest out of her room so i could discuss her behaviour. when i turned around, my MIL was "secretly" and furritively trying to give my son MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! she was telling him that they'd done nothing wrong, that they were always "good kids" and, hey, here's $100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
although taken aback at her behaviour, i really wasn't that surprised by it....

anyway, for me, i think that the woman in the article is a tyrant. i cannot imagine calling ANYONE garbage, never mind my children? if you wouldn't treat a stranger in that manner, how can it be even remotely ok to treat your children that way??? her children have not been allowed to be children. i can understand pushing your kids to be the best they can and to try their hardest at everything, but to think that everyone MUST be good at everything is not only unrealistic, but it borders on cruel.

her behaviour, calling her children garbage... not letting them go to the toilet, not letting them do ANYTHING THEY want to do, not be allowed to visit friends' homes etc is a power play... if a husband was treating his wife like this, we would be suggesting councelling and most probably divorce...why should it be ok for a parent to do this to a defenceless child?
 
carang said:
i'm not sure i would link it to being closer to poverty. i have an EXTREMELY close relationship with my mother. she is really one of my best friends. she grew up the eldest of 5 in a minister's family. they were not destitute but by no means were they even considered middle-class, even though as the town minister, my grandfather was very well-respected in the community. my husband has a similar relationship to his parents that nicole's husband has....one more out of duty than anything. and although i like my MIL, i really feel that there is no respect from her towards me and my role in our family. eg) just today, my kids were fighting, so i separated them and gave them a 5 minute time-out. towards the end of the 5 minutes, i called my youngest out of her room so i could discuss her behaviour. when i turned around, my MIL was "secretly" and furritively trying to give my son MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! she was telling him that they'd done nothing wrong, that they were always "good kids" and, hey, here's $100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
although taken aback at her behaviour, i really wasn't that surprised by it....
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Ha! The money story really rings a bell with me. My son spends a considerable amount of time with his Chinese grandparents and has since he was a newborn. He literally is at their house at least 1-2 days/week and has his own set of toys and a bed there.

But, my husband and I can barely handle being around the grandparents when they are with my son because they override us at every turn. It's frustrating to watch them allow my usually pretty well-behaved child run wild. There really are no rules with them when it comes to him. We'll be sitting at the dim sum restaurant and he'll crawl up on the table and they'll do nothing about it. It drives us nuts! And that behavior (as well as the tantrum throwing) totally doesn't fly at our house so he doesn't even attempt it with us. So, he has his time with "ye ye" and "ma ma" and we avoid being around during that time. The only arguments we've ever had with my parents-in-law since we were married are about their lack of respect for us as parents of our own child.

But, interestingly, their behavior toward my son makes complete sense--my father-in-law spent his child-raising years away from home trying to make it big in the company. He worked all day and then partied all night (to climb the ladder--ie going out for drinks with the bosses to kiss up) and he did that for years and years. My mother-in-law worked in a factory sewing garments as she had about a primary 6 education (because her own family had about 10 children and the mother was a housewife and the father a repairman on the island trams--equaling no money--in fact my mother-in-law was sent away to live with an elder married sister to eliminate one of the mouths to feed).

So, my husband grew up in his early years raised by his grandparents--primarily his paternal grandfather who also had a concubine that he would bring my husband along to visit (saying "stay here and play with the dog and I'll be back in an hour"). Essentially my parents-in-law in many ways forfeited/missed their opportunity to be parents because they had other things going on. So, now along comes a grandson and for them it is like redemption. I think probably inwardly they feel guilty about how they treated my husband and so they lavish all their love on their grandson--all the love that was withheld from my husband and it makes them feel like they can erase the past and that now it's permissible. They are super affectionate with my son--hug and kiss him all the time and tell him "I love you." In a way it's precious. I remember when we first brought my son to their house when he was 8 weeks old my father-in-law would hold him and walk for hours around the house rocking him to sleep and singing to him. It just breaks my heart, though, because my husband so longed for that affection and love that was denied him.
 
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