What to write as reference for helper we are firing

[carang]

one could make the argument that an employer demanding to keep the employee's passport is duress, which would also make it illegal.

you have now had 3 people tell you it was illegal... whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you.

 

[peainpod]

Ironically, when I tried to ask my helper for her passport - as I need to write down the Visa Number which is now required on the Notice of Termination to HK Immig, she doesn't have it either!! Apparently she has given it to somebody as collateral for a $2000 loan and now needs $2800 to get it back ($200 per month as interest, and this was 4 mths ago)

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. Personally I have never - and don't intend to hold a helper's passport. I was just sharing what someone told me and I really didn't mean to open up this can of worms!

 

[howardcoombs]

Any act to take any property without authorization from the owner is illegal. You can't take your helpers camera unless she agrees, nor can you take her clothes, nor her passport. If she agrees, then it doesn't look illegal to me.

You are missing the point; passports are not like other possessions in that she does *NOT* own the passport and its not hers to give away.

See second paragraph for PPines passports: http://newyorkpcg.org/index.php/our-services/passport
Here is what Indonesia says : http://www.indonesiachicago.org/conpprie.htm

Most countries have similar laws...

 

[thanka2]

Aren't there laws to deal with harassment of any kind? Is firing always the answer? Again, I wouldn't like it but if my helper was marvelous and got herself into trouble I would probably rather deal with it that way. It's the right and choice of the employer, of course. Harassment is illegal even in the case of someone making poor financial choices. If someone showed up at my place of employment or home to harass me about someone else's debts I would immediately call the police.

Thanka2, clearly you have never had this happen to you. It's all nice in theory to involve law enforcement but you are at the bottom of the police's to do list. When the thugs show up at your home you are lucky if they show up 2 hours later, that is if they show up at all. You'll get more help from your own management office.

In terms of the police doing somethings about the harassing phone calls and mail, again they drag their feet, and usually tell you to sort it out with the debt collectors themselves. This is real life. all the while you are wasting your time calling the police ect, you and your family are getting harassed, especially your terrified children. This can drag on for weeks to months. The most effective method of getting rid of these thugs is to show them a termination letter and usually they will confirm with the management downstairs that the said person no longer lives at your place after coming round a few more times.

I think its fair enough if you want to get yourself into trouble, and even if you want to get your own wife/husband/children into trouble with debt collectors but to force others to endure this for your own folly is incorrect.

That said, I'm all for free will. If as an employer you're willing to tough it out with these people for your helper, than my hat off to you, but I don't think its fair to pass these helpers onto a new employer.

btw I don't think your helper falls into the usual category. She obviously paid off her debts otherwise you would have known about it.

Yes, my helper is far from "usual" but there are others like here in Hong Kong. So happy to have her. She sure has made our lives more lovely in many ways.

I'm not saying anything would be easy but I do believe that I wouldn't just fire my helper if I was in that situation. Maybe I'm one of those employers who would tough it out. My interactions with the police here have always been prompt and I've had to call them on emergency several times for rough or violet altercations on the street. At any rate, I don't have a "management office" because I don't live in that type of block so the police would be the first I would notify.

No, this particular situation hasn't happened to me personally but I am still glad I was able to voice my opinion and concern and that the original poster could also see where I was coming from. The original poster does have a long road to walk to sort out this situation and I wish her all the best.

 

[thanka2]

Ironically, when I tried to ask my helper for her passport - as I need to write down the Visa Number which is now required on the Notice of Termination to HK Immig, she doesn't have it either!! Apparently she has given it to somebody as collateral for a $2000 loan and now needs $2800 to get it back ($200 per month as interest, and this was 4 mths ago)

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. Personally I have never - and don't intend to hold a helper's passport. I was just sharing what someone told me and I really didn't mean to open up this can of worms!

Wow. This most recent update made me laugh. Not because it's funny but because it's incredible how convoluted this situation is for your helper. She's in a sorry state. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragically horrible.

 

[peainpod]

Thanka, I found the situation a bit ridiculous too. But not sure my helper is in a tragic situation, to be honest. She has left my household and we parted on good terms. (She even hoped to come back to work for us in a few years when this blows over.)

Anyway, it seems this happens a lot. Helpers take on loans way beyond their means and then they skip town and come back to a different household with "more or less a clean slate". Of course my helper says her credit is ruined so no more borrowing from banks - but i'm sure there are many institutions who would still be happy to lend to them.

In my case, if it had been a "manageable" debt, perhaps we might consider helping her. But given she owes over $100,000 (to many dif ppl) and I can't envision her working it off in a reasonable timeframe, there was no way we could keep hiring her. And to be honest, I think she prefers to just walk away from it rather than work for years to pay it off. Btw, I'm not endorsing this at all, just telling it as I see it.

On the plus side, the lenders seem to be more "understanding" of the situation. Most of the calls we have received after she left have simply asked for the Immigration letter confirming termination. I did get one very nasty call from a collection agency threatening me and swearing at me but I told him I was recording the conversation (I bought a USB phone recorder in anticipation of this) and said I will report to the police if needed. The next day I actually got a call from a dif guy apologizing profusely for the first one and saying he'd fired him for it! Obviously it's prob not true but it's still good to know they fear police involvement and harassment charges.

 

[rani]

Ironically, when I tried to ask my helper for her passport - as I need to write down the Visa Number which is now required on the Notice of Termination to HK Immig, she doesn't have it either!! Apparently she has given it to somebody as collateral for a $2000 loan and now needs $2800 to get it back ($200 per month as interest, and this was 4 mths ago)

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. Personally I have never - and don't intend to hold a helper's passport. I was just sharing what someone told me and I really didn't mean to open up this can of worms!

We went through this a few years ago as well. I tried to help my helper to pay off her loans, as we really liked her and her loan was manageable. Also, she was new to HK and didn't expect to be taken advantage off by her own cousin here.
When I asked to see her passport, we also discovered that her friend was holding it. I paid the friend and got the passport back, and then we figured out a repayment schedule to pay the big loan her cousin and her had taken out.

If the loan was over 100K I may not have done it either.