Special Circumstances for Living Out?

U

us2uk2hk

New member
Hello! I've read through many of your previous posts regarding live-out helpers, but would like some advice. I recently moved here and am thinking of hiring a helper who is on a FDH visa. She would like to live-out with her husband (who is a driver and has also been here for a while) and son (who recently moved here).

She is telling me that it is legal for her to live-out and I can state this on the application - that many of her friends live out legally. Now everything I've read tells me that this is only possible under special circumstances (like your home does not have a helpers room and there is no private place in the house for her to sleep). Can anyone out there share their experiences? Do you know of any special circumstances where a FDH can live out legally?

Does the fact that her family (husband and child) live here count as one of them? I'm a bit hesitant to apply for live out if there is no chance that immigration/labour dept would allow it. (And I can't state that we don't have the space as our home does have plenty of space in the helpers room.)

I really like her, but would like to figure out a way to do this legally. Thanks for the advice!
 
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No she cannot (unless the rules have very recently changed). Certain FDHs, which have been employed by the same employer since some time long ago and have been living out since then can, all others cannot.

From the Immigration guide to employment of FDHs:

http://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/public/wcp/FDHguide.pdf

Q1.7 Can I live away from my employer’s home?
A No. You should work and reside in your employer’s residence in accordance
with Clause 3 of the standard employment contract. Your employer is required
to provide you with free accommodation as per the standard specified in the
“Schedule of Accommodation and Domestic Duties” of the employment contract.
(For those live-out arrangements which have been approved by the Director of
Immigration before 1 April 2003, the helper is allowed to reside in places other
than the employer’s residence provided that the employer continues to employ
foreign domestic helper without a break of more than 6 months.)
 
she is not telling you anything remotely near the truth. i would seriously reconsider hiring her if she is lying to you before she has even signed the contract!
 
not only that, but if found out YOU could be in serious trouble (fine and jail time) and possibly blacklisted from hiring another helper in the future (by the hk gov't) and she could face jail, deportation and a fine.
 
Thanks - that was my understanding from many of the other posts on this forum, but I wasn't sure if there were any other special circumstances that might allow this. She comes highly recommended from a friend and has worked for two of her friends who have since left HK. She seems lovely and was previously living in with these two former employers, but at the time her son was still in the Philippines. She's been here for over 10 years, but it could be that she just doesn't know all the labour laws. And also she probably just really, really wants to be with her family - which is understandable.
 
there are no special circumstances. this truly sounds like a nightmare situation waiting to happen. i would steer well clear.
son could be here illegally, too...it is possible to be extremely "lovely" but also be a liar...
 
I don't think it's fair for people to say she is a liar. She might genuinely be under the impression that it can be legal. She might be relying on hearsay from others who are lying to protect their own situation. People believe what they want. My part time also thinks it's completely legal.
 
sorry, i don't buy that. both she and her husband have been here for a "while"... they know what's what. she's trying it on. again, that doesn't mean she isn't a nice person. to me, it merely means she's not trustworthy/truthful. she is counting on the fact that the OP is new here and won't check out the legalities for herself.
 
that said, we do have a helper that believes EVERYTHING he hears from friends so, anything is possible.
 
And although it is illegal, so many people do it. I guess some people out there are willing to take the risk. I understand that the OP wants to do things legally (and I would do the same) but to point out that many helpers and employers are willing to operate a live out arrangement despite the risks.
 
yes, i do know of people who have done it, but those same people face a lot of frustration if it doesn't work out as they have no legal leg to stand on, having broken the law themselves.
 
Thanks for the advice! We're going to continue interviewing for live-in helpers. I'd prefer not to deal with the stress and risks.
 
I think it's a little much to assume that she's a liar. Not all helpers are well educated in the law, or well educated at all. There are many, many helpers who live out for years with no problem. So maybe she sees that and presumes it's OK. As she's been here so long, she might also be remembering the laws from when they were more flexible.

Ignorant? Yes. But untrustworthy and a bad person? I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Yes, you might get into legal trouble. But the majority of my friends have live-out helpers and, in more than a decade here, I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble. So long as the situation is clearly explained and a mutual decision -- and so long as you are fairly paying for decent rent, food, and transport -- many people do it. I think the government only goes after you if there is a big problem, like an overstayed visa or an abuse case.

I know this doesn't help the OP, but I think it's so unfair that people of all other nationalities -- Chinese, Western -- can have the freedom to live where they want, but Filipina FDH are forced to live in, either if both their employers and themselves don't want it that way. Could you imagine if someone told you you had to be separated from your husband and child for employment reasons?

Personally, we are hiring a live-out FT helper. She clearly stated she wants her own independence, and we clearly want our own privacy, too. We've discussed this with our agency, and filled out the form saying that we do have a spare room which is available to her (which is true). And we will pay decently for an outside apartment for her. We just want to do the best for our family, and our employee. Wish us luck!
 
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i never said that i agree with the law. personally, i think it is utterly ridiculous. but, the law is the law (and in my mind should be respected).
 
sorry, gracey. i still don't buy it. that would be the equivalent of an employer pleading ignorance to the law when caught paying $2000/month instead of the minimum wage...
 
Carang -- I don't wish to go on forever about this. But your analogy is really unfair.
Underpaying an already underpaid migrant worker is ethically wrong. It's abusive. We would never do that. HK $2000 / month is terrible.
If anything, we're giving her better much pay (almost HK $6,500 once you add rent, food, transport, etc) set work hours, time outside the workplace and more independence. It's an agreement we have both happily agreed to.
I'm not sure why you're so stuck on this point. I'm not pleading ignorance of anything.
I know the law, but I think it's an unfair, racist law. It's a small risk we're willing to take to give the helper the freedom and life she wants here.

We have an old lady neighbor with a tiny, quiet dog. Technically, she's breaking the housing estate rules, but I'm not going to rat on her since she's never bothered anyone in her life. I have friends in China who have VPNs to access the Internet. Technically, they are breaking the law, but I'm not going to turn them in.
I've enjoyed your other posts here. But I find you're a bit judgmental on other people's choices. So long as people are acting in good faith, I say live and let live.
 
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gracey, i totally agree with you. the law is ridiculous, racist and everything else you name it to be.

that is not the point. the point is that it is illegal, just as underpaying a helper is illegal. in no way am i insinuating that you do not treat your helper fairly, on the contrary, you seem to be more than fair and generous.

however, i do not understand how people can go on about having an "honest" helper and then require the helper to live out (an illegal act)? in the very nature of your alternate agreement with your helper you are requiring her to be dishonest...

if the law changes, great! I will most likely be one of the people to employ as live-out.

i am not passing judgements on anyone who chooses this option. that is totally up to you and if you are comfortable with the arrangement, great. it's just not something i would personally be comfortable with.
 
Sorry if it came out the wrong way, Carang. I didn't mean to come down hard on you -- just the law.
I hope it doesn't seem to the helper that we are forcing her to live out. She specifically asked to live out when we first started negotiating.
For us, it's a calculated risk we're willing to take. My husband absolutely refuses to have a stranger live in the house. It's a 100% no for him. So when this helper said right away she wanted to live out, it was a Godsend.
The way my husband is, it's either it's a live-out FT helper, or no FT helper. We also need an English speaker, since my husband speaks no Chinese. Plus, my limited experience with local or mainland helpers is that they are more expensive and not very good. (One Chinese woman from Merry Maids talked my ear off the entire shift about her family problems on the mainland, then refused to change the kitty litter, which is something I'm not supposed to do while pregnant).
Once I get into late pregnancy and then actually have the baby, I don't think I can do with just PT like I do now.
 
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there are no special circumstances.
however, i think the major risk is due to $$ istead of the legal side. I dont think the gov will check every singal case.
If something wrong, the insurance protection for the helper is not valid.
If $$ is not a matter, then a local HK chinese or a foreigner with HK ID can also 100% legally live out.
 
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