second baby, second helper?

W

welshdad

Registered User
my wife is pregnant and expecting our second child in July. my daughter will have just turned 3 when the baby is born.

we live in a small 850 sq ft flat and have a live in helper. both my wife and i work full time and will need to continue working if we're to raise the mortgage on the larger flat we need and cover the payments and more importantly convince the bank to lend us the money based on our double income.

so we're considering the option of taking on a second helper, but unfortunately don't have enough room to accommodate a second one in the current flat.

i was wondering what the rules and regulations are concerning taking on a second "live out" helper.

also what experiences other families may have had with the changed family dynamic.


i'd also welcome practical advice on where to find and also how to assign/split the workload.


incidentally the helper we have at the moment, has been very good and we're generally happy with her performance. However she has already suggested that we employ a cousin of hers from the philippines as the second helper, the current helper wants to move out and work as the live-out and new helper (cousin) would live in. The current helper has recently started dating

i'm ok on the dating issue but i'm quite uneasy about her desire to live-out so her relative can live in, as we don't know the cousin and friends have advised that having two close friends/relatives as helpers together is not good for the household. however i'm also aware that i don't want to lose the current helper as she's a good person and helper

any advice or shared experiences on this would be very welcome
 
hi welshdad

we've only ever employed helpers who know each other or are related to each other, and we have never had any problems.
 
1) doesn't matter how many helpers you have or the size of your flat. it is illegal to have a live-out helper.

2) you don't really need a second helper to take care of a second child. women all around the world manage to take care of two children at once, especially since there is a 3 year age gap. my two are only 2 years apart and my helper has managed just fine.
 
Carang is right on the legal issues. I think it is much easier to have helpers who are related if you still go down the two helper route. We have two sisters (who live in) and a very happy household.
 
We recently employed a second helper. Similar situation to yours except that I work part time and our children are 18 months apart. The reason we hired the second helper was that my son can not go to playgroup unaccompanied. Therefore we needed someone to take him to playgroup and another person to look after my baby. I think that if my older child was old enough to go to kindy by himself on the bus then I would not have hired a second helper. Can you older child go to activities by herself?

I know that lots of mums in our home countries look after 2 young children but none of my friends at home do it without help. They have a cleaner once a week, pay someone to do the ironing and often send the older child to childcare one of two days per week so that they can spend some time alone with the baby. Even then they generally find it very difficult. My sister did it with no help at all and ending up weighing 45kgs and suffering from post natal depression. Quite frankly, if you can afford the extra help, then go for it!

Carang,
1. you run your own business so I wonder if you are able to be a little more flexible and help out your helper when she needs it. For instance are you and your husband able to be home for bathtime and dinner time (generally this is the "witching hour" in our house)?,

2. your older child must have had no scheduled activities (playgroup, music class etc)?? Otherwise, who looked after your baby while your 2 year old attended activities?
 
yes, owning my own business does mean i have slightly more flexible hours, some of which i can work from home. hubby works from home, too (but often we have more than 20 dogs, so his time to help is very limited).

when my kids were very little, we lived in db. neither of my kids did any playgroup or anything when we were there. there was enough to do wihtout having to "pay for play".

when we moved to sai kung, because of where we lived, my son didn't do any activities either. last year, both of my kids did socatots. i arranged it so that my helper could drop off my son at school, then take my daughter to soccer and when that was finished, they went to te playground or library until my son finished school at 12. now, my son is in full day school, and my daughter is not taking any other classes. we just don't have the time nor the money to be able to get the kids to and from classes in addition to my son's school.

my kids are great, well-adjusted, good at sharing (most of the time) and have no problem making friends at the playground.

we now have 2 helpers. we didn't get the second helper to help with the kids and he pretty much doesn't ever watch over them. his main job is taking care of the house and cleaning the ground floor.

i still maintain that mothers all over the world are able to manage 2 kids without any helpers at all, so 2 kids shouldn't be too bad.

i also think that many kids in hk (not saying yours, just ones i've encountere) are WAYYYYY over-scheduled. i once taught a 4 year old who took 13 additional classes every week in addition to school!

my kids' schedule goes somthing like this:
7am wake/b'fast/dressed
7:45 walk to bus stop
8am bus to sai kung (no school bus comes out to us!)
8:45 drop off at school then to market
9-9:30am bus home
10-11:45 play while helper cleans
11:45 tidy up
12 lunch
1-2:30 nap (helper starts to prepare dinner)
3-3:30ish pm bus to sai kung
4 pick up son from school
4-5 play at the playground (weather permitting)
5:30 home (helper prepares dinner)
5:30-6:30 play/watch tv
6:30 dinner
7:15 bath (helper does dishes, i give kids a bath~ usually)
7:30-7:45 homework (for son)
8pm bed

helper is usually finished by 8:30pm at the latest.
 
think welshdad wasn't asking about whether a 2nd helper is needed but more about the practical issues.

having 2 helpers can sometimes bring on a whole set of problems with changed dynamics (whether related/friends or not). you hear stories from them 'ganging up' against the employer or accusing each other of breakages/missing items/shoddy work - but i know many friends with 2 helpers without any real problem (incl ourselves)

for us, like welshdad our first helper was with us for a while with our elder child (now 3) and we hired the second helper when the younger child (now 1) was born.

to begin with, while no. 2 helper was still learning the ropes of our household (mostly the housework, laundry, bottle washing etc) and general childcare was taken care of by first helper. we felt trust had to be built up before we could put a newborn (and toddler) in their care.

the work load division has changed over the year and work has been divided out according to their strengths (or weaknesses!). So one does all the cooking (kids and adults sometimes) because she's a fantastic (and passionate) cook - and the other will play with the kids. Both have a schedule of housework and laundry (set by them but to meet our requirements) and we specifically didn't want one particular helper doing all the childcare playdates and activities.

as mentioned by sherwes, activities (local playdates/park etc) take up more time as no. 2 is a toddler and we still need someone to be around to pick up/drop off the older child from kindy school bus etc.
 
i was only addressing the issue of not necessarily needing 2 helpers because they don't have space (wanting to get a loan in order to move?) and possibly wanting a live-out helper.

yes, two helper CAN lighten the workload, but by no means is it anywhere near necessary.
 
Welshdad

I am about to have my second baby in Sept. And am already looking into hiring a second helper. We live in a 1500 sq ft apartment with an active 4 year old. Both my husband and I work.

Without family in HK, I've worked out that it can be difficult with just one helper. As it is, our one helper doesn't seem to cope with the size of the apartment and our child (who doesn't take classes apart from the ones we take him to on the weekends). Our helper does not do the marketing either currently.

I can't imagine leaving my 10 week old baby ... maternity leave sucks in HK... with ONE helper who has to manage the household and my 4 year old. A helper is NOT a mother who can manage. They are merely babysitters so, the level of care (from our observations) just isn't the same as when a mother cares for their own child.

We are looking into moving into a house to accommodate our growing needs. We don't own though and we don't want to spend more money so for us it means moving further into the boonies. It's fine coz we have a car.

So, I'd say a resounding "Yes!" No family + Two full time working parents (who both work outside the home) = Not having a choice. It's tiring to be a stay at home mum with two kids. Why would someone who isn't the parent be able to manage? The level of care is just not going to be the same. Imagine how tired that helper is going to be!
 
just to be clear... i'm not condemning nor judging those that choose to have a second helper (we now have one, ourselves)... i'm merely pointing out that it isn't a necessity.

yes, life can be much easier with two sets of hands. no, you cannot expect the same care as if it was the mother taking care of the children (but that does NOT mean that the children are neglected in any way, shape or form).

believe me, i can definitely see the merits of having two helpers BUT if it means going further into debt in order to do so, i think you are crazy.

for the past 2.5 years we've had the space for a second helper. that wasn't the issue. money was. i wasn't going to go further into debt to be able to have one. i wasn't going to move house simply because i wanted another helper.

guess it comes down to a choice between need and want....did i need another helper? no... would another helper have been nice? yes.
 
welshdad, i really don't think it is a good idea to have your "old" helper move out and your "new" helper move in....knowing that she has a boyfriend outside complicates things, i.e. when things are good between her and bfriend, great, but if things turn sore, then what are you going to do? also, i wouldn't want to have a complete stranger at my home for so long too without supervision, you just don't know her! is there really no way to accomodate 2? bunkbed? have a pull out bed in the night? it is nice to have two helpers that know each other and if one is recommended by the other it does actually help, since they "know" each other and can communicate.

necessity is really up to your family - i was originally going back to work after this summer, but since i'm having baby #2 in june, and the gap is 22mths, i've decided to stay home for one more year, and then work part time / from home so that I have more time with the kids....for me, i have the option for hiring #2 helper, but for our family my staying home is priority - can we afford it? well, it's really all relative....we have a mortgage to pay, and we'd like to get a bigger place, but that will probably now take a little longer than we had originally planned....good luck with what you decide! having 1 good helper is already a blessing! :)
 
carang, don't think welshdad means they will go into debt by taking a second helper on, nor that they need a bigger place just to accommodate them (which would be crazy as you say).

think they just intend to buy a larger home for their growing family and as a necessity, both need to continue working full time so they can secure the mortgage required and meet the monthly mortgage payments.
 
if that's the case, then all the power to them! that was not my understanding from reading the post... my mistake. sorry
 
I would not let the helper dictate who lives in or out even though you like her a lot. Explain to her that you are very uncomfortable with her living out. Better to be upfront with your feelings than feel upset after the baby is here. You are already being really nice to consider hiring a relative who does not have experience looking after children in HK.

I have a relative as a second helper too (mother-daughter) and we are quite happy. I have heard of stories where it is not clear cut as to who is the senior and who is not- age, some family dynamics, experience in hk vs experience with you, who is more efficient, whom you/wife get along with- all matter and thats where troubles could begin.
 
We have two kids and one helper which works fine for us. We can't justify the expense of two and have no space for a second one either. I have no problem with people having 2 helpers but we don't feel the need for it for us. It took me 2 years to get used to having a helper living with us (not something we have in my home country), I can't imagine having 2!
 
We have two helpers as we both work, have a dog and have two children close in age with separate activities. My helpers have time to keep the house clean (not a priority but lovely nonetheless), cook, take the kids wherever they need to be and most importantly for me, the energy to play with them. Of course it is not necessary, but 2 helpers provides a much higher degree of flexiblity (and rest) for everyone. Some of my friends with two kids / one helper and manage well, but it's certainly not plain sailing.

Ours are related - second sister arrived with child no. 2. It's been a positive experience for us, they are very close, there are no flights over who does what and I do not need to address or mediate between them about anything.

Yes live out is illegal, but thousands take their chances. Among those I know, it's probably 40%. Bunks are an option to consider, they work well for us and the upper bunk can act as storage if not used regularly. Even if one lives out, there may be times when you need both to stay over (if you and your wife both travel).

Could you agree with your current helper that initially the new helper will live out, you and your wife can then decide if you are comfortable enough with her being the one to live in?
 
Welshdad, I think it's quite risky for the maid to stay out, let alone the legality, now that she has a boyfriend, what happens if she gets pregnant? That will really complicate things!
I guess different housewhole have different needs. I had 2 helpers when my kids were little. Their gap is 16 months, so there was a period of time when both had to hang out at home. Having 2 helpers can be quite complicated too. Sometimes there are arguements and there are little things which seem so tiny to u, but a big deal to them. I remembered once my 2 helpers had an arguement when one of them forgot to wash her dishes after her meal. Both of them had this frustrated look on their faces for days.
But of cos everything aside, having 2 helpers means that the house will be clean, children taken care of..
 
I have a friend in a similar situation who ended up hiring a part-time helper to come in a few days a week to help with the domestic chores (cleaning, ironing, even cooking some of meals). That freed up her live-in helper to concentrate on childcare for her two young ones. The part-time helper is actually Chinese, has her own family and is completely legal.

(Cara's right that there are some helpers who are able to manage two kids and housework at once, but they are rare and hard to come by. I also know one friend who found such a gem - her kids are 3-1/2 and 2 yrs old - but you really can't expect it to be the norm!)
 
first up i'd like to thank everyone who's contributed to this thread thus far, certainly is helping us to consider all issues.

so i'd like to answer and clarify some of the issues raised.

the first decision we had to cross was whether my wife quit her job for a couple of years ie be the mum and we continue with the one helper.

She’s decided she wants to continue work for at least a year or two, until we can secure a larger flat. She has a professional job and banks like her, I run my own (successful) small biz and travel more than I’d like, but banks don’t trust me enough – a sad reality for most if not all small businesses.

To get a mortgage on a 1200 sq ft flat we need to offer the banks the security of a stable professional income as well as that of my company. We probably won’t get it on my companies (official) profit so we both will work.

We could possibly struggle on with one helper, but I think the points made by the Quasimother about the helper not being the mother are particularly valid. I really think it would be too much to expect one helper to look after a new born and a very active 3 yr old. Let alone cope with the logistical stuff of getting the 3yr old to kindy and looking after the new born – even if it’s getting down to the car park to collect and pick up my 3 yr old when she starts kindy next September.

The financial side of having 2 helpers isn’t a problem as the double income we get will more than cover this, and hopefully within a year we’ll have an adequate size flat to house all of us happily, helpers included.

The current flat does have a purpose built helper room off the kitchen but I’m embarrassed to say it’s a mere 6 ft by 4 ft, so it’s unreasonable to expect them to share. I even have sympathy for the current helper being in such a small space.

I must admit I wasn’t aware of the legal situation with hiring a live-out. So We’ll need to consider this quite carefully.

It has been mentioned to us that it is possible to get part-time Chinese helpers – naturally live-out to help, does anyone do this and can they recommend any agencies. Incidentally my wife is HK born Chinese, although I should also add we don’t have any family back-up here.

I’m also quite encouraged to hear peoples positive experiences of helpers who are friends/relatives working together. Although we’ve been told there is a risk of the helpers exerting too much control in the house (words quoted to me, not mine) I also see that related helpers who get on with each other and have the best interests of the household at heart, has to be better than pairing two unknown helpers together – am I being too idealistic here?

Thanks to all out there contributing
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top