Naptime problems

S

sonic-dragon

Registered User
Hi all

We have 2 year old twins who have been in bilingual kindergarten/nursery for 3 months, in the afternoon session, starting at 1pm.

Our twins are early risers - between 5 and 6AM. Until recently they have been napping at 10AM til 11.30 or 12, ready to wake up, have lunch and go to kg. So that was perfect.

Unfortunately recently we have been unable to get them to sleep in the morning. They become sleepy at 11.30 or 12, which is a disaster, as they then won't eat lunch, fight violently with each other, have tantrumms when getting ready to go to kg, on the way home (and at home) afterwards, and the kg said they are sometimes falling asleep there ! All in all, it's been a very difficult time.

The advice given by the kg is to put them to bed late at night and let them sleep in in the morning, apparently it is common in HK in general and among the families at our kg in particular for the children to go to bed at 11pm and get up at 11am. For a variety of reasons we don't want to try that. We have tried putting them to bed later than normal, hoping they can sleep in a little longer, but 11pm is out of the question, and in any case they still wake around 5.30am even now we are putting them to bed later, which just exacerbates the daytime (lack of a) nap problem.

So, we were considering two options - to find a kg with places available in the morning session, or to persevere and try to "train" them not to have a nap in the daytime. As far as the latter idea is concerned, we have been advised that this is not a good idea, because, while all children are different, in general, 2 year olds do *need* a daytime nap. Unfortunately all kgs in our area are full at present, so it looks like we only have one option.

Any advice on how we can make this work would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
SD
 
Find them a place in the morning session even if it takes some time. Plenty of people are leaving HK this time of year and plenty of people are getting fired so you might just get lucky.

Trying to keep a 2year old up til 11 is bizarre. It's completely against their body rhythms. I would never trust anything that comes out of the mouth of the people that run HK kindies as you know they are purely financially motivated and will tell you what you want/need to hear to keep your children in school.

We would only ever consider morning sessions for our two little ones with play dates and activities in the afternoon so it doesn't matter if they miss a sleep and get grumpy. Your twins might just be going through a stage in regards to their naps. When my eldest was 2 it looked like he'd dropped his nap but boy was he a cranky chap. He went back to them after a few weeks and we're all better for it. The more sleep he gets the better he is. I think if you sort out the kindie problem the rest will work itself out.
 
Hi there

thanks for your reply.

I'm not hopefull about finding a kg with an available morning session, as all the ones I have tried (ie all the ones within a reasonable travelling distance) have long waiting lists, including the one they are at, and only one was willing to put them on their waiting list. For the kg they are at there is a very long waiting list already, and we've been on it since we booked their place there earlier this year, and we are nowhere near the front.

As for believing what the kg says, actually I do believe them, because I personally spoke to around 20 helpers dropping off or picking up, and they told me the same. Anyway, that's beside the point because, as I mentioned, we don't want to put them to bed at 11 (I'm asleep by 9 myself !).

So, really, we're looking at strategies for having no daytime nap, as there doesn't seem to be an alternative.....they seem to be able to go to bed at 5pm or shortly after and sleep till 5am with a bottle around 8.30pm (while half asleep) , so it's all about the daytime nap and whether they can either get used to not having one (and whether we are doing any damage by trying), or start having one in the morning again.

Another point raised by the kg actually, is that if they have woken early, and not had a nap by the time they arrive then they won't be getting the best out of it anyway, even of they don't fall asleep there.

Thanks again
SD
 
I'm not doubting that other families are keeping their children up late but I'm doubting that it's a 'reasonable' and 'healthy' thing to do to a 2 year old.
 
If it were me I would probably take them out of kindy until a morning session was available. they are only 2 afterall.
 
Yes, that's another option, though in reality it would mean giving up until K1 starts next August, as the chance of a morning session becomming available is close to zero. For the two waiting lists we are on, there are more children on the lists than there are total places, so unless all the kids in all the morning classes, are taken out, and then some people drop off the waiting too, it's not going to happen.
 
Although I prefer morning sessions as well, my take is a little different. Having been a patient to one of US leading pediatricians / sleep expert I am a strong believer in early bed times. My children sleep better and longer (in the morning) if they go to bed early. Research has shown that children who are overtired have more trouble falling and staying asleep compared to children who are well rested. They also tend to wake up earlier in the morning. My twins go to bed at 6.30-7.00 pm and will sleep 12 hours most days. My oldest was even better, going to bed at 6 pm between age 4 months and 2 years of age, sleeping 13 hours straight. I can count the exceptions on one hand. She napped until age 3 1/2. I strongly believe in sleep begets sleep, and by establishing a healthy and earlier bed time routine, they may actually sleep longer in the morning and/or at least take a decent nap. Nap times that correspond to our natural sleep cycles are usually 9 am (morning nap) and around 1 pm (and possibly a late afternoon nap around 3 pm for infants).

I don't think you can blame them for not taking a nap at 10 am, that's pretty early in the morning even if they wake up between 5 and 6 am. I would shoot for an earlier bedtime (somewhere between 6 and 7 pm). I think research has also shown that 90% of children nap until age 2 and 3, so with an afternoon session it's definitely not easy. You may want to pull them out for a little bit and/or until you have a morning spot. In the end they won't enjoy school if they're just to tired. It's not beneficial for your children or your wallet.
 
you mentioned your kids are going to sleep around 530pm, what happens if you slowly adjust their time to sleep around 6 or 7pm? Will they sleep in longer in the morning? if they do, maybe they won't be so tired and can last through the afternoon without being so tired? Another option would be to delay nap time until after they come home from kg for 1hr so they can make it through dinner?
 
Hi, I also have a 2 year old, and she also gets up around 5-6am, and then goes to sleep at 11.30am for a couple of hours, and in bed again by 7.30am. If she goes to bed later, she still gets up at the same time.

In your situation, I would not drop the nap. It is so important at their age for health and concentration. If I couldnt find a playgroup that suited, then the only answer for me would be to wait, or create my own playgroup?? . Depends why you send them. My daughter will go for 2, 2.5 hour sessions from January. She goes for fun, socialisation and stimulation. If the timings didnt work I would simply wait and look else where for what you want them to gain from KG. I dont think there is an alternative.
 
Thanks for the replies

They are sleeping around 5.30pm now only because they have not slept at all during the day. If they do get a daytime nap (ie, weekdays before this episode started, or weekends now) then we would put them to bed at 6.30pm. Either way they wake up around 5-6am. We have experimented with putting them to bed as late as 8.30pm on days when they have napped, and they still wake up at the same time !

As for napping after kg, the problem with that is they get home around 5pm or just before, so there really isn't time for a nap then.

Today we're going to feed them in the park near the kg, and then give them a half bottle of milk for the walk home (strollers) so by the time we get home they will be fast asleep (guaranteed) and we'll just transfer them straight to bed and give them a towel bath in bed. This way, we avoid a temper tantrumm if we keep them awake till we get home and then try to feed & bath them normally. Then we'll see what happens tomorrow.

I think our next step is going to be pushing the naptime back to 11am, which is about as late as it can be for them to wake up in time for kg. Wake at 5am, nap at 11am, sounds reasonable, right ? Particularly since we take them out to the park, playground, or other activities, to tire them out from 6am till 9am. FYI we had 2 helpers quit on us already !:eek:

As to the reason for attending kg, it's a combination of learning social skills and cantonese. A playgroup rather than kg would also work, I think, but when we looked for one earlier this year we didn't find any (except lots of english language ones).
 
just a question, when you put them down later, and they wake up at the same time, how many days in a row did you do this? I think you may need to try for a week or so...for the body to adjust to the new routine...not sure if this works for you since you've already figured out something that works. just thought I'd put it out there just in case.
 
my twins are sort of in a similar situation - we have been going to Woodlands pm sessions - 2.30 - 4.30 - so thats almost perfect (mine nap 12.30 - 2.30 so on the kg days we just get them up at 2 pm). We now have to move to the next level and the only classes avail are 11 am to 1 pm - just no way we will be doing that. So I am just going to sit tight and wait until either morning or pm class becomes available end of. There is no way the kids at this age (mine are 2 yrs and 5 mnths) should have their naps compromised...
Although one of mine seems to be giving up her nap altogether but thats a separate issue! :(
Look around other kgs - where do you live? If no classes available at the time that suits you - just take them out of school (they really dont need to be in school at that age!) and waitlist them for the class that works for you.
 
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Why dont u try tiring them in the morning . We do that sometimes with our son. He gets up also at 6 everyday and doesnt sleep till 12.30-13.00 but he has school in the morning. But sometimes if we want him to sleep earlier. We take him to park in the morning about 8.00-9.00 let him play run around for an hour and he is tired and then he sleeps earlier so he can be awake earlier
 
Again: "normally" they go to bed around 6-7PM (actually at 6.30). I get the impression that people who replied to this thread think they go to bed late - they don't. Actually, they are now often sleeping at 5PM.

Update the the situation. Stil waking around 5-6AM. Pushed the naptime back to 11.30, but still they don't sleep. At kg they are "OK" except that our boy won't stay focussed on anything (just wants to do his own thing). After kg it continues to be a nightmare with tantrums. Typically one or the other or both cry themselves to sleep. We have now taken them out of kg. Still they don't want a daytime nap. They are both sleepy around 3PM, but we find something for them to do, so they don't sleep at that time. This week they have slept at around 6PM till 5 or 6AM.

Advice much appreciated.
SD
 
i would join a dedicated playgroup in the morning hours or consider putting them for some classes or two and take them out of the afternoon school....they r too young to miss out on a nap./...also the naptime taht u currently have would always interfere in either morning or afternoon schedules even later on. so i suggest u put them to bed say by 6-6.30 pm so that they wake up at 6.30-7.00 am and then they will need a nap only by 1.00pm....a morning school starts by 8.30 to 11.30 so they can come home, have lunch and nap off....by son napped till he was 3.5 years old so u have a long way to go.....pls. pursue all waiting lists for morning sessions and look for some good quality art/english/music clubs to help them learn at the same time.
 
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