Is it me or is this nuts?

L

Liquorice

Registered User
Astounded by my pregnant helper's reasoning as to why she can't work any longer...

1. Difficult to go up and down the stairs (reckons she could work in a one level apartment but not one with more than one floor)
2. Difficult to bend to clean things
3. Worried she might fall while she is cleaning (asked 'do you usually fall when you're cleaning?', answer 'no, but sometimes the bathroom floor is slippy)
4. Will be hard enough to just look after my son as he gets more active, so would only be able to do that and no other chores (my son is 6 months old; not even close to crawling yet)
5. Worried about being able to eat enough because she needs to eat very substantial meals and how can she cook these when she has to look after my child?

My helper is only two months pregnant and she only works half days. I really am gobsmacked by her attitude, but I guess it must just be an excuse not to do the job, right? I explained to her that the work she is describing is what most pregnant women in the world have to do, plus often with a toddler or two, plus often work full time as well. Pregnancy is not an illness. Listening to her you would have thought she had something terminal...
 
Maybe she wants to go on maternity leave indefinitely? If she pulled that sort of attitude with me, that's exactly what would happen.
 
I'm sure that there are a certain number of weeks paid leave that they can get for maternity etc - but I definitely would not expect that you would need to pay her full pay for the duration of her pregnancy if she's not WORKING for you. I would be looking up exactly what she is entitled to and not giving her ANY more unless she appears to WANT to work for you. We're all mothers here and we KNOW that pregnancy can have it's ups and downs, but you're not completely incapacitated, at least not in MOST situations... and yes, get doctors notes for everything!!
 
is this her first pregnancy? she just sounds overly worried to me and not that she doesn't want her job. doctors note and give her what she is entitled - if she wants more than perhaps unpaid leave at her own discretion - she can decide for herself once you give her the options.
 
Liquorice, have her document and then sign her demands for reduced work explicitly. Then you could detail a letter as to what your expectations of her duties would include (as right of reply). Particularly as her demands are ridiculous, unable to go up a flight of stairs, do anything but mind one non crawling infant.......you have grounds to terminate her if she has no medical reason as to why she has been incapacitated. Pregnancy is not grounds for 11 months (9 months + 10 weeks of maternity leave) of paid leave. I think this must be made clear to her.
 
but you cannot legally fire a pregnant helper.

you should contact the labour dept to make sure you know the rules/regulations/laws when dealing with a pregnant helper.
 
No, this isn't her first pregnancy.

Also, I didn't explain properly in my first post that she has actually agreed to stop working for us; those are some of the reasons as to why she doesn't think she can continue to work.

We hired a couple, who said they had no intention of getting pregnant, but did after only a few months. We told them that we will need to let him go (the husband), because I have stopped working now (unforeseen when we hired them) so much less money, we will also have to hire another helper to cover her maternity leave and I'm not paying for three helpers. The plan was to save the money we'd spend on his salary to cover the costs of a new helper (agency fees / flights / insurance etc.) plus whatever live-out arrangements we have over the maternity leave period.

Anyway, she says she won't work without him so she will leave too.

I cannot believe that she really believes those reasons she gives for not being able to work. As I said - pregnancy isn't an illness and she's hardly pregnant.

My one concern is that she may argue to the labour department that she was forced to resign because she couldn't do a "two person job" on her own whilst pregnant. She does keep saying that we hired a couple. But it absolutely isn't a two person job. They are done with all of their work by lunchtime. We just hired a couple because we needed someone to walk the dogs while she was looking after my son while I was at work. I will do that now if she doesn't want to (I used to walk them in the mountains when I was 8 months pregnant, but I understand if she feels worried). So all we are asking of her is light chores and minding my baby sometimes. I need to find out what the rules are on that.
 
if she has said that she will quit you MUST get that in writing! if that is the case, then you only have to pay her what is her due and let her quit.

when is she planning on finishing work?
 
Mummymoo / Carang, I have tried to find out from the labour department under what circumstances I can terminate her contract but they are really non-committal. It seems that the employer really does not have many rights at all under these circumstances. I think I need to get legal advice. She is resigning now with a two month notice period, but I don't know how I can hold her to that - say, if she changes her mind after I've signed up another helper to replace her etc. She will sign a letter, but as I said in my last post I don't know whether she could say that she was forced in some way to resign. I asked the labour department and they told me this is a legal matter not a labour dept. matter, saying only that if she changes her mind about leaving then that is her prerogative.
 
(1) Confirm that she is pregnant. Pay for the test if you must at a medical clinic.

(2) Get her resignation in writing like Cara says (even if she would later turn around and say that she was forced). Fact would be, she wrote in writing that she was given two months notice.

(3) On days that she can't work, refuses to work, document it. And INSIST on a medical certificate from a doctor. ALL of us working mums have to do that. We couldn't just rock up to our bosses and demand that our workload got reduced. And, we still went home to our toddlers/children to be a mum! I'm sure the Labour Department is NOT unreasonable about this. Pregnancy is like you said, NOT a disease.

(4) Take her to a doctor (at your expense). Be there when she speaks to the doctor. Ask the doctor to certify her fitness for work and if she isn't fit for work, make sure she gets a medical certificate. Even half days should be certified. Once her 10 weeks + 4 weeks (I think this is a labour law thing for pregnant women) have been utilised, let her know that it is no longer paid medical leave if she doesn't work.

I'm sure she won't give you grief and neither will you get into trouble with the labour department if you get a doctor to certify all those days off when she whinges about not being to work.

Not to sound harsh but I was a full time working mum with a child during my pregnancy. There was not a day when I could not rock up for work without a medical certificate or demand time off without one!
 
Liquorice said:
Mummymoo / Carang, I have tried to find out from the labour department under what circumstances I can terminate her contract but they are really non-committal. It seems that the employer really does not have many rights at all under these circumstances. I think I need to get legal advice. She is resigning now with a two month notice period, but I don't know how I can hold her to that - say, if she changes her mind after I've signed up another helper to replace her etc. She will sign a letter, but as I said in my last post I don't know whether she could say that she was forced in some way to resign. I asked the labour department and they told me this is a legal matter not a labour dept. matter, saying only that if she changes her mind about leaving then that is her prerogative.
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Draw up the letter and take it to a notary and both of you sign it in front of the notary. That is a legal document--and her argument that she was "coerced" will be harder to prove. Also draw up the letter in such a way that it explains her exact reasons for leaving the job--even a list of the items she is no longer able to do. That's what I would do.
 
TheQuasimother said:
Not to sound harsh but I was a full time working mum with a child during my pregnancy. There was not a day when I could not rock up for work without a medical certificate or demand time off without one!
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Exactly. And even then...in most situations you're lucky if you can get 1-3 days/off--forget about taking the rest of your pregnancy off. And most of us have to multi-task so much more in our jobs...and just like QM wrote, then we go back home at the end of the day and look after our toddlers and preschoolers and are a wife/partner....I don't have much pity for laziness

As I write this I have a friend who works FT and is 4 months pregnant and she has been throwing up almost every day, all day at work for the past 3 months and she is STILL working and going home to her kindergartner every night and her husband. And she doesn't complain about it. Why? Because it's her job and she's a grown-up that knows that this is sometimes what life hands us.
 
It's funny, how in so many of these posts, helpers do not treat themselves like professionals, but like kids.
Many of them do things that none of us could do in our jobs -- not reporting for work, not handing in sick notes, etc.
I've gotten 3 days off during my 7 months of pregnancy, because I called my office in advance, and then submitted a doctor's note from a hospital saying I had a threatened miscarriage. That's all.
And I wouldn't ask for more unless, God forbid, I had another major medical scare.

Get it all in writing. If she says 2 months, it's 2 months.
 
Carang, I believe there must be situations where pregnant workers can be fired/terminated, as the labour department can not be completely unreasonable if an employee is totally misbehaving as opposed to be being sick/unwell. That said, in these situations you do need to tread extremely carefully and document everything.

I think the quasimother's suggestion for a plan of attack is sound advice if she decides to stay, but you know at the end of the day, even if you do manage to have her to show up for work everyday, or have a doctor certify that she is fit to work normally, and she does do the things she is paid to do....you won't be able to guarantee a good attitude whilst doing the work, and for me, a cheerful positive attitude is important, as a negative one brings the whole house down.

Yes, get some legal advice. Thanka's advice of having the document signed in front of a notary public is a good one, however having used these services before, the people who witness these things are pretty unengaged in the whole process, mainly they confirm you are who you say you are and witness you signing the document WITHOUT making sure you necessarily or they necessarily understand the contents. At times they may refuse to witness the document if they feel unsure as to their role.

Good luck and be careful
 
unfortunately i don't believe that terminating a pregnant worker, no matter what the cause will go down easy for the employer and the repercussions for the employer will be very tedious - think the best way would be to "convince" her to leave amicablely" and sign any papers..don't think a notary public is really all that useful in your case but as long as you have her sign papers, date them and have a witness to it, then that in itself should be a legal document that will hold her accountable and take the burden of releasing a pregnant employee. personally, when i was not renewed after returning upon my maternity leave (reason being I was not doing my job as stipulated in my contract - i was even THERE to do my job- i was on leave) I made sure to make a BIG fuss about it even though the end result was the same - I just had to make some noise shall we say.

she's probably finding excuses to leave anyways - but doesn't want to say it because she loses all her "benefits" if you were to fire her instead. could you just pay her off so she doesn't lose them?
 
am i missing something?

the helper has already quit (given her notice)... how can she "change her mind"? surely if she has already given notice and quit the employer is no longer under any legal obligation to retain her if she "changes her mind"....
 
lesliefu said:
unfortunately i don't believe that terminating a pregnant worker, no matter what the cause will go down easy for the employer and the repercussions for the employer will be very tedious - think the best way would be to "convince" her to leave amicablely" and sign any papers..don't think a notary public is really all that useful in your case but as long as you have her sign papers, date them and have a witness to it, then that in itself should be a legal document that will hold her accountable and take the burden of releasing a pregnant employee. personally, when i was not renewed after returning upon my maternity leave (reason being I was not doing my job as stipulated in my contract - i was even THERE to do my job- i was on leave) I made sure to make a BIG fuss about it even though the end result was the same - I just had to make some noise shall we say.

she's probably finding excuses to leave anyways - but doesn't want to say it because she loses all her "benefits" if you were to fire her instead. could you just pay her off so she doesn't lose them?
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I think you are right that it will always be hard. The labour department won't say anything concrete about when I have the right to terminate. I even asked whether I can terminate if she threatens my child's or my own safety and they won't even conclusively say yes then! I think it is on a case by case basis. I have been told by an agency that the problem is that once a case is brought before the labour department then it just goes on for months and months and months.

Regarding paying her off, when I first found out she was pregnant I offered to pay her salary for the rest of her pregnancy and her maternity leave from 6 months pregnant if she would resign then - about $23000 - as I am starting a very difficult uni course in September and wanted all living arrangements settled by then. She declined because she has some misconception that her child will have residency rights in Hong Kong if s/he is born here. I have told her this isn't the case but I don't think she is convinced.

To be honest, I am no longer inclined to pay her off because she has rejected all attempts we have made to deal with the situation in a way that benefits both of us and her work and her attitude are getting increasingly worse. She was only working for us for a few months before she got pregnant, I already spent a fortune sending her on childcare courses, CPR/healthcare courses, buying them special selected furniture, getting them set up with a landline and TV satellite etc. In conversations before, she had said they would live-out if we bought her husband a car to drive to and from work in. It seems the more we give, the more they expect.
 
carang said:
am i missing something?

the helper has already quit (given her notice)... how can she "change her mind"? surely if she has already given notice and quit the employer is no longer under any legal obligation to retain her if she "changes her mind"....
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No, she hasn't quit. She has agreed that she will quit in two months. I am having her sign a letter saying she will quit on that given date but I can't process anything with immigration until one month before.
 
buy him a car???? is she fricking insane???? seriously?

she needs a kick in the axx, if you ask me.

get from her IN WRITING that she is quitting as of xx date. then once you get to the month remaining, then take that paper to immigration immediately.

also, do a search on the immigration website about residency rights for babies born in hk... also contact immigration and ask them if they can write a response to your enquiry... then print it off and give it to her.

it sounds to me like this woman is more trouble than she's worth. she also sounds like the kind of woman who would create problems for you.

i am not one to suggest hidden cameras, but in this case, it might be a good idea. then you can PROVE that you didn't coerce her to sign anything and also you get her ridiculous demands on tape.

good luck, i think you will need it!
 
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