If this doesn't describe the Hong Kong mom scene...

[mumto2]

sorry did mean to say too that I liked your post Leah.

Also I don't understand the reasoning behind breastfeeding being time-consuming. Of course its true neither of the kids have ever had a bottle so I'm not really sure...but all those bottles, teats, sterilising, mixing formula, warming bottles, bottle holders - man, it seems very very time-consuming to me...and so expensive! lol

 

[spockey]

ALL mothers get teased/berrated/guilt-ridden/confused about they do...just feed them, wash them and keep them fed and educate them and hopefully at the end of the day they won't kill us in teenage-hood...

Hear! Hear! It doesn't matter whether you breastfed or not, used organically sound resources or not, the list goes on... the bottom line is the same. There is NOT a single research that can prove anything. It's all based on circumstances.

Having said that though, I was not able to breastfeed at all - the midwives worked it out from my hospital stay with real valid medical reasons, not by choice, I was told that it was not going to make a difference in my ability to raise a healthy child (by the same midwives in a "posh" hospital who throughout my pregnancy ensured that we felt horrible if we chose not to breastfeed). Funny eh... how the "benefits" aren't that great afterall and the bottle and the "best formula" was brought to my attention. Of course, it could have been said because they could tell I was totally depressed about not being a responsible mother because I could not breastfeed. But my child to date, is as healthy as the next child (without breastfeeding) - as for intelligence, there are SO many other factors.

Why do mums have to be so critical of other mothers' choices? Can't we just accept that we are all aiming for the same outcome? A healthy and happy baby/child/teenager.

 

[Buckeroo]

Well said, LeahH.

I agree with your post, too, mumto2, except for this bit:

don't spin some crock that you don't have enough milk, tell the TRUTH, that you cannot be bothered! That you would be happier if you fed the baby formula so you felt more rested.

I've been on both sides of the fence, so to speak. My first one was 50/50 bottle/breastfed. My second one (just turned 2) is exclusively breastfed... I'm still breastfeeding now (I want to wean, but just can't bring myself to 'force' it just now, but that's another story!). Not all moms who choose not to breastfeed do so because "they can't be bothered." Some women, especially new moms --me included (the first time around), --didn't breastfeed or didn't persevere at breastfeeding because they weren't better informed or lacked the proper support from professionals and/or from family members.

Regardless of whether we breastfeed or bottle-feed our babies, I'm sure as moms, we all strive to do the best we can for our children, given whatever set of circumstances we are faced with at any specific point in time.

 

[mumto2]

[good] point taken buckeroo, was probably just being lazy in my post and not mentioning all things but my point really was do the research but also to be honest - I was probably being subjective too because of the women I know who do formula feed and I know its because they couldn't be bothered after a while to breastfeed and wanted to go onto formula and women who have said "no milk" instead of the truth.

 

[AndreaY]

Dissenting voice here, I actually found the article very entertaining, well written and very well observed. So much so that I forwarded to my mommy friends when I saw it first posted by MLBW. It struck a chord with me. I am a little amazed by the vehement comments thereafter on the topic.

Let's be honest, the excellent benefits of breastmilk is well advertised and think every mother is aware of the info given. It is never mentioned in the leaflets, books etc on how difficult it can be and it is not something that's easy to expect/imagine. I found some of the comments a little condescending, the ones about how you should well expect the difficulties of breastfeeding and those who give up may be just selfish.

Speaking from experience, I never imagined the pain I can suffer as a result of bf, blisters, blocked ducts etc. and I did it for 9 and 14 months. I am lucky that I do not have to work, but I can imagine how difficult it would be if I had to. Also I have known lots of friends who spent a fortune on lactation consultants (good ones too) and they still did not have enough milk to exclusively bf their babies.

Anyway, think some of the comments about MLBW's post sounded a little unwelcoming. I just want to say to MLBW, thanks, I really enjoyed the read.

 

[MLBW]

What exactly do some women think is going to happen after you give birth? That you've done your job? That's it? Easy peasy from then? How on earth is taking time out to breastfeed your child SUCH A STRAIN on your time??? Oh boo-hoo its so time comsuming and hard! What the?? Do these women seriously not know that you have to feed your baby X amount of times and not research various possibilities that could happen? Or simply find someone likeminded and grasp steadfastly onto their theory and artificially feed because its less time consuming? What a crock! I'm entirely over women feeling guilty about decisions they make as mothers but BE HONEST! Its the only way guilt will be gone. don't spin some crock that you don't have enough milk, tell the TRUTH, that you cannot be bothered! That you would be happier if you fed the baby formula so you felt more rested.

Question 1: Have you ever breastfed?
Question 2: If you did breastfeed did you encounter any serious problems? (such as severe recurrent mastitis, extreme pain that made you cry every time you nursed for the 6 months you did it, baby biting you every time they nursed even as a newborn--and no LLL advice helping? etc. etc.)
Question 3: How are you so clearly able to discern that women who say they don't have enough breast milk at heart are just lazy?

( I have a close friend who indeed did not have enough breastmilk! And it's a mystery to the doctors and lactation consultants why even though she breastfed exclusively for two months her son was back down to his birth weight at eight weeks--he was STARVING but every doctor and lactation consultant who advised her never noticed anything was wrong! She had all the signs of having enough milk but she didn't. It wasn't any health problem with her son who has fully recovered now--she was not producing breastmilk! I suppose you would label my friend as a lazy mother who just couldn't be bothered to breastfeed (or bottle feed) but I, having seen her dutifully pull out her breast every time her son seemed hungry and have him latch on, know different.)

Question 4: When in this article or any of the posts was the word easy mentioned?

(There is a difference between the terms easy, practical and do-able. I think that this article is speaking more to the sanity of the whole situation rather than how easy or simple it is. Is it the sane choice? For a lot of women, it's not.)

I don't care about your child except in a community sense - but what you feed it? who cares and I'm not going to judge you for it.

Question 5: You're not? Your first paragraph seemed very judgmental.

sidebar though, my children are NEVER sick and I do wonder if its because I have passed on my strong immune system...my instinct is that its true and i could go out and find a hundred pieces of research that agree with me and I'm betting a formula feeder could go and find a hundred pieces of research disagreeing...

Point: Exactly! It's placebo. It's true because you believe it is. The research does not pan out on this one. It is inconclusive. It neither demonizes bottle feeding nor does it glorify breastfeeding and vice versa.

ALL mothers get teased/berrated/guilt-ridden/confused about they do...just feed them, wash them and keep them fed and educate them and hopefully at the end of the day they won't kill us in teenage-hood

Point: It's one thing if these things happen on an individual basis--which they do to all of us. (Who in this life doesn't get teased or put down or looked down upon for one thing or another?) It's another when government agencies fuel one side or the other based on how they spin things. Still another for people to buy into misinformation on one side or the other because it suits or justifies their position. I think this article was mostly about hype, spin and misinformation.

 

[MLBW]

I just want to say to MLBW, thanks, I really enjoyed the read

You're welcome!

 

[MLBW]

MLBW: You could always start a bottle feeding club if you feel that strongly... it's good you can vent on this forum as it doesnt actually sound like you are that 'over' your choice if you are looking for vindication in a single piece of research with subjective findings to feel liberated.

BF should be a personal choice, my first baby was a mix for the first 6 months then moved wholly onto formula. my second is exclusively BF now, but I'll probably move to formula for reasons of convenience when I feel like it (and won't feel bad or guilty at all).

I would say there are more formula fed babies amongst my expat friends here than BF - so not sure what you mean by a pervasive 'scene'. The tai tai lifestyle doesn't exactly lend itself to the labour intensive nature of BF - not that my friends fall into this category...

Hmmm...another innuendo equating not breastfeeding with being lazy. Also suggesting that any woman who is can handle any sort of "labor intensive" activity should be breastfeeding.

All that said, I am not as delusional as to ignore the wealth of research that points to the clear benefits of Breast milk - I simply recongnise that I'm making a personal choice for lifestyle reasons and don't need 'research' to make me feel better.

"Delusional"? "Ignore the wealth of research that points to the benefits of breast milk"? Case in point, are you sure that what you have accepted as the "wealth of research" mentioned above is what you think it is?

I don't believe there is anything wrong with formula feeding, but that doesn't mean I need to believe it's equal to BF - it's proven to be pretty difficult to simulate the compexity of what your body provides naturally in this and a whole host of other areas.

I think the article pointed out that the results are by and large the same for bottle fed and breastfed children. I would argue that making formula requires the same complexity--although in a different arena--research and technology.

I do find your stance interesting though, given your preference for locally sourced, organic food - it doesn't get much more local than BM. For me, you can draw parallels between GM food and formula - not to mention formula companies with massive, wholly misleading marketing campaigns, being akin to companies like Monsanto.

Yes, it doesn't but that doesn't mean it's the best in the overall picture for mother and baby. On one hand it's local and organic (but not so much so unless you're eating 100% organic, pollutant-free food, you're passing along chemicals and everything else to your baby--feeding organic formula would be a way of avoiding this). But, I think as the article pointed out, breastfeeding can't be looked at out of the context of womens' overall lives.

The practice may not need to be 'exalted' as far as you are concerned, but in some instances is necessary to actively push information into the public arena so everyone can have the luxury of making their own decision.

Oh, there is plenty of information in the public arena where I'm from--and as I've read, a great deal of it is spun. So, what is better--information that is spun or none at all? And which helps a person make an informed decision better?

 

[MLBW]

You could always start a bottle feeding club if you feel that strongly...

I would never start a club around in which way I feed my child because as I said, it doesn't need to be a glorified practice. In that way I would be doing the same thing I'm critical of.

it's good you can vent on this forum as it doesn't actually sound like you are that 'over' your choice if you are looking for vindication in a single piece of research with subjective findings to feel liberated.

Oh, but I am over it, whether or not you ascertain that I am. See, it isn't a "single piece of research" that has offered me vindication, as you incorrectly stated. It's a single article that points to a MOUNTAIN of research that is vindicating. This author was just one of the few to not accept what the PR campaigns fed her and actually look at what's out there. So, yes, she did research for her article but the extension of that is that she points out that the actual research surrounding breastfeeding and formula feeding is inconclusive at best and has been spun.

BF should be a personal choice, my first baby was a mix for the first 6 months then moved wholly onto formula. my second is exclusively BF now, but I'll probably move to formula for reasons of convenience when I feel like it (and won't feel bad or guilty at all).

Good on you. I hope that no one labels you as lazy because you might feed your child for convenience.

I would say there are more formula fed babies amongst my expat friends here than BF - so not sure what you mean by a pervasive 'scene'. The tai tai lifestyle doesn't exactly lend itself to the labour intensive nature of BF - not that my friends fall into this category...

Hmmm...another innuendo equating not breastfeeding with being lazy. Also suggesting that any woman who is can handle any sort of "labor intensive" activity should be breastfeeding.

All that said, I am not as delusional as to ignore the wealth of research that points to the clear benefits of Breast milk - I simply recongnise that I'm making a personal choice for lifestyle reasons and don't need 'research' to make me feel better.

"Delusional"? "Ignore the wealth of research that points to the benefits of breast milk"? Case in point, are you sure that what you have accepted as the "wealth of research" mentioned above is what you think it is?

I don't believe there is anything wrong with formula feeding, but that doesn't mean I need to believe it's equal to BF - it's proven to be pretty difficult to simulate the compexity of what your body provides naturally in this and a whole host of other areas.

I think the article pointed out that the results are by and large the same for bottle fed and breastfed children. I would argue that making formula requires the same complexity--although in a different arena--research and technology.

I do find your stance interesting though, given your preference for locally sourced, organic food - it doesn't get much more local than BM. For me, you can draw parallels between GM food and formula - not to mention formula companies with massive, wholly misleading marketing campaigns, being akin to companies like Monsanto.

Yes, it doesn't but that doesn't mean it's the best in the overall picture for mother and baby. On one hand it's local and organic (but not so much so unless you're eating 100% organic, pollutant-free food, you're passing along chemicals and everything else to your baby--feeding organic formula would be a way of avoiding this). But, I think as the article pointed out, breastfeeding can't be looked at out of the context of womens' overall lives.

The practice may not need to be 'exalted' as far as you are concerned, but in some instances is necessary to actively push information into the public arena so everyone can have the luxury of making their own decision.

Oh, there is plenty of information in the public arena where I'm from--and as I've read, a great deal of it is spun. So, what is better--information that is spun or none at all? And which helps a person make an informed decision better?

 

[mumto2]

Hi there, I'll answer some of your questions even though they were answered in my original post but beyond that kind of bored with your post since you keep on arguing the same point which has already been conversely answered by me and others - that you can believe the nonsense in the article as fact, the same way I can believe my "nonsense". The point that you keep mysteriously missing is that if you want to back up ANY point of view, you can find research to back it up.

Yes I have breastfed - for about 3.5 years. And no I don't believe it is placebo regarding the health benefits of breastfeeding. I think that is ever so laughable. But I'm sure you will find a dozen articles to oppose mine and the WHO's point of view.
No, no problems, did it properly ;-) Did encounter a few painful bites when first one got teeth which caused severe bleeding and pain every time the milk had to break through the scabs for about 10 days but, you get that and I was able to correctly identify the signs it was about to happen with the second and never got bitten.
What a shame for your friend. She is amongst the [I think] 4% of women in the world who legitimately don't have enough milk. If you had have read my post correctly, you would have seen that I branded myself as subjective because I know for a FACT that the women I know who used the excuse "not enough milk" could not in fact be bothered.
Um, you seem to buy into a whole load of misinformation and state it as fact, so why can't anyone else? I think what you believe is a total crock but then so you do think that of me - the point I made was, who cares? What does it matter at the end of the day? It would just be nice if mothers made choices and told the truth about those choices instead of making up crap to make themselves feel better or because they feared getting judged is all.

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond

 

[AndreaY]

No, no problems, did it properly ;-)

Sorry to intrude on seemingly private argument, but are you serious?! Are you implying all the mothers I know (a big number too) who have tried SOOOO hard to exclusive breastfeed and not succeed was just cos they did it wrong and you did it right? What a crock of condescending sh*t! That is just down right insulting, especially with the ";-P". I think it's great you did not encounter significant problems and you are a lucky one, same as I was. But please do not make it out you are so capable and the 96% (the rest of % you quoted) are just whinging, selfish and cannot bear the responsibility of motherhood. We all know statistics are just numbers and it does not mean "4%" of the bfing mother you know will not have enough milk. In reality, at least from the ones I know , the % is a whole lot higher. Perhaps due to the HK diet, way of life, stress, god knows.

Maybe you should just count your blessings that you have not encountered bf problems that you could not solve and feel a little sympathy for those who are less fortunate than yourself and not judge them so harshly.

 

[pooch]

ok this thread is getting well out of hand - again. not unlike previous bf posts. until now i have kept quiet but I have to say I, along with AndreaY, enjoyed the article and felt it rang true for me.
I find the 'breastfeed at all costs" mentality frightening - and I exclude LLL from this as from what I understand their #1 rule when problems are being encountered is feed the baby - even if its formula. I wish I had this advice first time around. My baby lost 33% of his body weight by day 9 and I was still being told that I should not supplement!! Quote from my dr "would you be happy with a formula-fed baby? Its a slippery slope". This was in London where I was made to feel like I was poisoning my son every time I fed him a bottle of formula. I kid you not - it was a horrible experience.
I have to disagree with MLBW in that I find HK for the most-part to be pro-mum ie. do what works for you & your baby. Having said that the people that tend to post in the bf threads on this forum do tend, on the most part to be insensitive to those of us with who don't bf.
I am glad that my immediate circle of mum friends are a lot more understanding and supportive - in all regards, not just bf.

 

[sherwes]

mumto2, I find your comments very rude and insulting to women (including some very close friends of mine) who really tried their best to exclusively breastfeed but were not able to for a variety of reasons. Quite frankly you sound like you had a "dream run" breastfeeding and you don't seem to have any sympathy for what many other women go through.

And before you ask, I did exclusively breastfeed. I managed to exclusively breastfeed not because I "did it properly" but because I was lucky that an experienced lactation consultant could help me with the problems I was having.

On the issue of whether or not bottle feeding is lazy. I have to say that (once my initial problems were sorted out) breastfeeding was very easy. Once you have the hang of it, it's much easier just to whip out the boob than than it is sterilise bottles, stress about what formula to buy, work out how to get formula reheated on planes etc etc...

 

[mumto2]

Don't sit there on your high horse pretending to know who I am and whether or not I am being condescending or having a private joke with a poster who I think is obviously intelligent enough to know the difference! And how very very sad that you choose to believe that a winking sign was there to demonstrate condescension rather than what it was - what a sad half-empty glass you have.

The facts are 96% of women are able to breastfeed without any difficulties.

You are not seriously trying to blame Hong Kong are you? And yet again with the "big number", "the % is whole lot higher" arguments. Well in MY experience its a WHOLE LOT lower than 4% that cannot breastfeed! And I was quoting (thereabouts on %) a FACT! So who is right???

How difficult is it to ignore posts you find offensive or confusing? People do it every day. If you were confused, perhaps a personal message could have rectified that? You seem hell-bent on nit-picking the parts of my message that you disagree with and ignore the numerous parts where I have said I have NO judgement about what mothers feed their children. But you seem to be confused as to whether or not you wish to take the things I say as serious or not - or are you just trying to pick the parts out that help you win your argument? Would you prefer me to say I actually judge mothers? Would that make you feel better? Because that would be a lie yet you seem to have no problem whatsoever in judging me and thinking you know who I am.