Flat contract from Lawyer NOT estate agency?

S

Shenzhennifer

Registered User
(sorry to cross post this from geoexpat but am getting desperate and need to move out of my flat soon.)

Is this common in HK?
We`re supposed to be moving to a new flat in a week and just received the final contract (to be signed by hubbie`s company) and I am shocked: it`s a 16 page English language (hubbie`s employers are HK and Japanese) document that I can barely understand only because I studied a bit of law before and my father was a lawyer). All parts basically leave the owner out of ANY RESPONSIBILITY to do with the place, whether or not damages were caused by us or by natural causes. In fact the place is 12 years old and has not been upgraded or renovated - only maintained. So if a window falls off and down 45 floors into the swimming pool and kills 3 people, it`s our fault. If the drains get clogged because of 12 year old plumbing, our responsibilty. We have to ensure maintenance of the rooftop(we are the top floor) through the management company. Basically we are the superintendents of the place and are financially responsible for everything even though we are just renters and just want to stay there quietly for a year or 2.
Then it says that we have to `pay and discharge all taxes, assessment duties, charges impostions and outgoing of and annual or recurring nature now and hereafter to be assessed, imposed or charged by the gov`t or other lawful authority upon the said premises or upon the owner or occupier (except property taxes).`
What is it talking about here????? What kind of taxes?
I seriously want to go off on these people and punch the owner in the face. Notwithstanding, we pretty much need to vacate in a week and I have furniture coming this week, haha.
I have warning bells going on but don`t know if they are fueled by anger and annoyance. Also they emailed the doc at 6.40pm on Friday night and expected to send a messenger to pick the signed copy up like 10 minutes later.
Is this nuts or is it just me?
 
That sounds odd to me. When I used to rent, the landlord was responsible for all repairs in the apartment. When the washing machine broke, he fixed it or at least he paid for the fixing after I called the maintenance guy. Also landlord was in charge of all government tax and assessments which includes rates (paid four times a year) and land rent (paid twice a year). I've only ever rented from one person and I assume that is the norm. Did u use a real estate agent? Why don't u ask him or her about it. Were these terms negotiated and agreed by your hubby's company? Good luck working it out!
 
I think that that is nuts. If I read that contract, there is no way I would sign it until someone sat down with me and answered, to my satisfaction, all the questions I have about it. Even if I was desperate to move out, I wouldn't be desperate enough to sign a contract that could possibly mean financial/legal suicide for my family at some point. Actually, I think they way they are presenting everything is unacceptable (sending a document via e mail at closing time at week's end and expecting it returned immediately--sounds like they are trying to rush you into signing it!) and they must think you are gullible or stupid just to sign something because it's the only way you can rent the place. I would seek for a temporary shelter (i.e. hotel etc.), put the furniture delivery on hold and sort through everything before I signed the document and moved into the place. Just because the document comes from a lawyer also doesn't guarantee that it is in line with HK law--so that's something I would look at too. Documents like this do mean something in HK and they can really get you in big trouble. I dealt with some contract troubles last year that weren't even as complicated as yours sound and it was a pretty iffy situation. Even a year or two in that sort of predicament could be really horrible. I really hope you will listen to those warning bells 'cause you're a smart chica and I would hate for you to get roped into something yucky like this seems to be.
 
FutureHKmom - thanks for your experience and clarifying what those `taxes` might be. That makes sense as later in the contract it was stipulated that the owner pay the management fees and the property tax. I`m not familar with these other taxes but now at least I have something to go on. No, we will definitely not be paying anyone`s taxes or for assessments. We used a real estate agency, same one as for our current flat. But the owner refused to use their agreement and instead insists on using his own.
Thanka2 - I agree with you, it is nuts, the more I think about it, especially calling it financial suicide. I think we can get an extension to stay here longer, maybe...furniture can be put on hold, even singapore vacatino can be postponed. It`s annoying too bc it`s a nice flat witha great view. I think someone who would sign this current lease would either be uneducated or completely rich so they would not care (in that case they wouldn`t be renting there, haha!).
I have combed through the contract and have made comments for ammendments and clarifications (lawyer`s daughter, hehe) which they can make OR to get a home inspector to come and report on the condition of the place.

Would still love to hear any other opinions or experiences please~
 
I also had a contract from the lawyer because my landlord's nephew is a lawyer and handles the contract on her behalf... what luck. What is even more annoying, when I tried to clarify some clauses with their lawyer, they wouldn't speak to me. They said I would have to engage a lawyer to communicate with them because I'm a "layman".
 
I have absolutely no legal experience but there is no way i would sign that document. To me, it sounds like the owner cannot afford the upkeep any more but also cannot afford to sell it, so is renting it and trying to hold you responsible for all building repairs etc.

We own property in the UK which we rent out and we would never under any circumstance hold our tenant responsible for the repairs (unless it was something she broke!). In fact, since we have been here we have repaired a leak in the roof, the shower, the washing machine etc.

The very fact that they sent it to you and expected you to sign and return it within 10 minutes means that they were hoping to "pull the wool over your eyes". They were probably expecting you to sign it without reading it and then spring it on you when the first bill comes in.

Like you said yourself, do you really want to be held responsible if the windows fall out, in to the swimming pool and kill some people and can you pay for insurance to cover yourself for that?

Apologies for the long winded reply but my advice would be to call a meeting with the lawyers and landlord to discuss before signing anything but they may try to cover up what is in the contract by dismissing some things you have pointed out and explaning them away. I would not sign it in it's current format and would expect it to be changed.
 
i have always rented and the landlord always pays for fees/rates as well as anything broken in the apartment that was in the contract (ie washing machine, lights, bathtubs, ie anything i didn't bring in myself). the contracts we sign are always done through the agency except when renewing we directly renew with the landlord (through same contract type anyways). it's a simple looking thing.

where i work though, the office tenancy is a thick maybe 2 inches across document my boss has to sign and was sent by lawyers. i never bother to read it though as boss does it!
 
Sounds ridiculous!

Never encountered anything like this here, except that we are now responsible for paying the quarterly government rates in our current flat.

Rates were included in the rent of our last flat so I guess that particular charge is one that varies. In this case both flats were owned by the same commercial landlord.
 
You can send it to my hubby to look at if you like (do you have my email addy?) - I think generally those things are the landlord's responsibility. No way I'd be signing that!!
 
I have a friend who was in a similar situation. they received a contract much like yours and decided not to sign it. they tried to go back to the landlord to get a more reasonable contract drawn up but the owner refused. in the end my friend had to move into temporary accommodation (they had already given notice on their current flat) and look for something else!
 
that draft contract sounds absolutely unreasonable and you should not sign it. I would not even bother wasting time trying to negotiate through the fine print of those 16 pages. Sorry to say that you will have to put your foot down with the landlord/landlady.

We went through an estage agent (Midlands) and used a 4-page standard form contract. It is reasonably balanced. I believe the big estate agencies like Midlands and Centaline use it, so try to get hold of a copy and convince your landlord/landlady to use that instead.

I am an inhouse lawyer and recently reviewed our office commercial lease. It was pretty much the situation that you described and I was outraged too. I was told that the totally one-sided contract (favouring landlords) is very common in HK simply because of their bargaining power. Because our company is the largest tenant in our building we were able to hold out on the more important clauses. Still, it took a few months and several rounds of negotiations. I was incredulous at some of the flimsy excuses that the landlord gave for avoiding legal responsibility for the simplest things, like keeping the building free of pests.

But back to your situation - don't sign that document because when things go wrong, you can be sure your landlord will hold you to it.

Good luck.
 
Great replies, thanks. Looks like I`m not the only one who would have warning bells.
Today I went to the real estate agent and went through the contract with the agent, who is not fluent enough (of course) to understand such `legalese` as that document. Just to show her how ridiculous it is. She agreed with me on same points, particularly all the ones imdemnifying the landlord of any responsibilities such as structural repairs. Big Owner Dude doesn`t want to use the agency contracts because he already has several HK properties and the lawyers handle them all.
Granted, about 75% of the contract just went into superfluous detail about what would happen if the rent was late, and how not to rent out the flat to others, house explosives or ammunition, and do other `bad` or immoral stuff:). It`s the other 25% that I refuse to commit to, like us being responsible if things go wrong in a flat that has not been updated in the 12 years it`s existed. And if the owner wants us to do some work on it, we have to oblige `without delay`. What springs to mind is the old early 1980`s Tom Hank, The Money Pit, where he and his new bride buy a seemingly beautiful home but as soon as they move in it falls apart bit by bit. Except we just want to live there quietly with our baby for a year or 2. Sheeeeeeesh.
So the agent called the lawyer (who now thinks he`s acting for both parties, think again!) who said that they can amend the contract if the owner agrees and they will all talk tomorrow with my (rather detailed:) notes specifying which sections and clauses didn`t fly with us, and the ones that we could live with though were unfriendly.
I also said that we would in no way be paying any more to the lawyers to amend the contract (can you believe we were already suckered into paying half the cost and stamp duty?). And that I was willing to walk away from this.
I spoke a tough game, but at the end of the day, we`re the ones who are going to be screwed. Big Buddy Landlord might lose a few grand from lawyer fees and wasted time having to start all over again, but we will have lost a great apartment and also have to start all over and for some reason they are few and far between in this complex at the mo. And the poor real estate agent has already bent over backwards in this and will still have to do so... Nevertheless, I am stubborn and smart enough not to be fooled by some fool with money. It still sucks though.
We`ll find out tomorrow if we can proceed at all and at what cost. Will keep y`all posted on our exciting world of HK rentals:)
 
Sounds like the landlord has been using a commercial lease as the template. The commercial lease will have tons of stuff that is irrelevant for residential leases (prohibition against "immoral purposes, funeral parlour, gambling den" etc are common in commercial leases). It is a complete disgrace that landlord's lawyers are using this version. Unfortunately it is all free-market so there is nothing unethical about it by the Law Society rules.

For residential leases, stamp duty is shared 50-50 and so is the real estate agent's fee. Management fee and council taxes are landlord's responsibility.

Honestly, if you can, ask the real estate agent to locate the boilerplate residential lease used by Centaline and Midlands, and wave that at the landlord and his lawyers. It will probably save everyone time and money coz that agreement is simple and quite fair to both parties.

Unfortunately in HK the landlords and developers have the upper hand, commercial and residential.
 
I`m using Ricacorp, which uses a template lease as well (liek we have for this flat), but the owner isn`t interested to use that. Apparently he`s had some strange situations before and those cookie cutter (but adequate) leases didn`t work for him. I`ve agreed to give the lawyer a call tomorrow to try to negotiate a few points. The lawyer already agreed to take out the ambiguous clause regarding extra tax.
I know they have the upper hand here:(, but if they budge on a few important details like our not being responsible for structural repairs (windows and pipes) unless it`s clearly as a result of our misuse(like I throw a rock through the window), and also adding an additional clause clearing us of responsibility if rainwater causes damage to the apartment (being the top floor), then we might be in business. We`ll see and I will keep my fingers crossed. I already have mail coming to that flat:)
 
Well, just to follow up,
I had a nice chat with the lawyer, who agreed to remove the bogus tax clause, another small wording that said we were responsible for windows regardless of fault, but that was it. I pushed for an additional clause that showed more clarity on the landlord`s responsibilities, and he then requested that I propose a clause which he discussed later with the Big Man.
Result: a new clause, albeit more abiguously written than my own, stating that the Landlord is responsible for structural repairs from wear and tear.
Boom! Signed, paid, we move in 3 days.
Downside is that we had to pay $1500 in lawyer fees. The old custom here apparently is that the landlord and tenant share lawyer fees and stamp duty (this is pre-agency i think). hubbie`s company said NO in the end so we said, sod it, we`ll pay for it ourselves, let this blasted thing be over with.
I consider it a victory. Shows that the little man does not have to be taken advantage of just because they are the little man, especially when the little man comes laden in common sense and convention:)
Thanks for your help (again!) ladies~
 
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