anyone else using gina ford? help please.

O

onesarah

Registered User
Hi ladies

I successfully used the Gina Ford book and routine with my first son and am now trying it with my second, who is two weeks old.

Structuring the feeds (bottle) is going well but he is unable to stay awake for longer than 1 hour around feed time. He is also very restless and crying from around 8pm, and does not settle until his next feed at 10pm. We have tried letting him cry (which he can for almost 1 hour and then we give in!) and also using a dummy to settle him - he settles but then wakes up when we put him back in his bed. I am quite sure his isnt hungry when he first awakes, as he has a good full split feed at 5pm & 6.15pm.

Two questions please -

1. How to keep him awake longer in the day ( I suspect it will come with time.)
2. How long can you let a newborn cry for?Its awful hearing him scream for so long but think he just wants attention and a cuddle and am wary on giving in!

Thanks in advance
Sarah
 
two weeks ? :O do you really want to try cio and sleep traning at this age ?

even ferber advices against it and most paediatricians would tell you not to interfere with babies' sleeping pattern.

sorry for sounding so harsh... but please wait till he's older. please cuddle him and give him as much attention as you physically can. they need it and become so much more secure coz of it.

have you tried dr. spocks ?
 
We vaguely followed Gina Ford in the beginning but found some of her timing were just not going to work with our little one.

1. Our daughter could only manage an hour awake at a time when she was really little but as she got bigger it gradually increased.

2. Best thing my mum gave me was a timer. We only ever set it for about 2 minutes (which I imagine for a newborn might seem like forever). It does mean constantly going in and out of the bedroom but we would settle her first with either gentle pat on chest and 'shh' or with dummy then retreat. When she woke up we'd set timer for 2 minutes (although I think we may have even started with just 1 minute!)then repeat. We'd often spend all evening (from bedtime until next feed at 10pm) doing this but the great thing is that now she is a great sleeper as she has learnt how to resettle herself.

I think with Gina Ford take it all with a pinch of salt and when you feel yourself getting too obsessed or worried with her timings just put the book away for a while. Every baby is different and some just do things their own way...

Good luck!
 
Hi, we're in exactly the same position. My first was a perfect Gina baby, number 2 now 12 weeks did not play ball early on but is getting better slowly.

Up until 6-8 weeks he also couldn't stay awake for very long, not even for 1 hour. I settled for keeping his feeds on schedule and putting in extra short naps either side of the long afternoon nap to ensure we ended up at the right bed time. I think I did pose this question on the GF website last time around and they said babies should 'stay awake UP to 2 hours' - it's by no means the norm for them to stay awake the full 2 hours so early on.

Now, at 12 weeks, he can stay awake the full 2 hours most of the time, but towards the end of the day drops off early. I still put an extra nap in if that happens - or if he wakes early and we are end up way ahead of schedule.

We also had very fussy evening's early on and tried tentative crying down (up to 7 mins) but stopped as I couldn't rule out pain as the factor (potential reflux, he's also very hard to wind) and colic. It's improved as time has gone on, but he's now super dependant on the dummy to sleep (which falls out and he then wakes up..) so I have made a problem to fix later on...

One book I have says that for very young babies 5-10 mins 'crying down' is the norm - slightly longer if they are particularly overstimulated.

I agree with smiles that you should amend GF to suit your baby, also I think I probably had all these problems with no. 1 baby early on but didn't worry about it so early on as I had nothing to compare it to.

Good luck!
 
Both mine followed Gina Ford, pretty much to a T for the 1st year. Here's what I found, it is hard to make baby stay awake for the 1st 2-3 weeks, but then it gets much better, either they get used to trying to make them stay awake or they are just getting older. To try to make mine stay awake, there were a few things that I did (1) tickle their feet (2) stroke their backs (3) undo a layer of clothing so it's not so warm, but the one I found most effective was to stimulate them with black and white cloth books (at this stage) and later with dangling things on playmat. Whatever I did, it was done one at a time and not very loudly.

However, I would not let 2 week old cio, think Gina Ford also does not recommend that (I may have remembered wrong), it's way too young.

onesarah said:
He is also very restless and crying from around 8pm, and does not settle until his next feed at 10pm. We have tried letting him cry (which he can for almost 1 hour and then we give in!) and also using a dummy to settle him - he settles but then wakes up when we put him back in his bed. I am quite sure his isnt hungry when he first awakes, as he has a good full split feed at 5pm & 6.15pm.
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You mean you put him down to sleep at 7pm and he wakes up a 8pm? I put both mine down before they fall asleep as stated in the book, so am not sure exactly what you mean by "but then wakes up when we put him back in his bed". Also do you swaddle? You have not mentioned any problems with the rest of his routine, so that means it's only out of sync at 7pm? I am only asking cos with both mine, the time they settled the quickest was 7pm, probably cos it's after the milk and they were so tired.
 
I`m sorry if my 2 cents sounds a bit harsh... but I got really sad when I read that you let your newborn cry for that long.
Babies that young are not trying to manipulate you - they just need something. And when they are 2 weeks old it`s probably milk. Your baby might just be cluster feeding -that`s totally normal. But he might just need milk. He`s only TWO weeks old. And how can he stay awake for an hour? that`s asking a lot of a little guy who but 2 weeks ago was comfortable in your belly.
I cannot believe Gina Ford is making any money if she is recommending mothers do this to their newborn babies at this stage.
So my answers are:
1) He will stay awake when he is ready.
2) You don`t.

I think you need to feed your baby and love him and give him lots of cuddles and kisses. Don`t worry about Gina.
 
Personally, I think these books are good for a little guidance, but try not to treat them as gospel or beat yourself up if they don't conform. I also followed a similar book (author was Tizzie Hall - Save our sleep). Admittedly, I didn't follow the routines until my baby was a little older (from around 4 months from memory) but when I did, she often threw me out on many occasions.
Your baby is still very young so I would tend at this stage to just try and listen to him, learn his crys, use the first few months to get to know each other and that way when you are ready to enforce routine (if he is not falling into his own by this stage) you will at least have an understanding of his needs and cries (ie, is he just wanting attention, does he have gas, is he hungry, etc) and be able to handle his needs a little better. Naturally you will both grow with experience.
Just my opinion anyway, best of luck with your new son.
 
Just a point on the back of the above post, babies don't tend to cluster feed in the same way when they are bottle fed on a schedule. (they can if bottle feeding on demand which onesarah is not doing)

If you are bottle feeding it's much easier to rule out hunger as a reason for crying. It's also easy to potentially overfeed when bottlefeeding - e.g. using milk as an answer to unsettled behaviour and evening crying. You can end up with a whole set of other problems doing that...

Also, 'crying down' is not quite CIO (which is not recommended until 4 months in some books, 6 months in most others) but a last resort when a young bub is overstimulated, desparately needs to learn the 'trick' of falling asleep unaided and you have exhausted all other avenues and know that hunger, pain etc. are not factors.
 
Thanks for your replies.
Please dont let this turn into an anti-Gina Ford/routine thread though. I have made the decision to try and follow the routine as it worked so well with my first son from week 1 and who was a very happy baby and always slept well.
I love my newborn hugely and what upsets me is hearing him cry when we have ruled out any possible problems and know he has fed well. His evening awekenings appear just to be from the fact he isnt able to resetttle himself to sleep and needs a cuddle to do so. We are very happy to do this, but also know from experience that he needs to learn to do this himself. He is swaddled and will almost instantly fall asleep on us when we lift him and then cries when we put him back in his cot.
Thanks LeahH for your comments and also Smile - I will try a timer!
 
ok, here's what I did, when I saw that baby was starting to doze off, I would put her down in cot, swaddle her and then pat her a little if she does not fall asleep within a couple of minutes. If they woke up and cry for more than a minute or two, I went in to pat them back to sleep in the dark.

I rarely picked them up to soothe, mostly cos generally not need to and also I did not want them to get into a habit of crying and knowing it means pick up time. On the odd occasions that they did not settle back to sleep, I did pick up, but no rocking, I just held them swaddled and slowly and gently pat them to soothe. Once they became calmer, I put them back in the cot and slowly patted a bit more until they dozed off, then sneaked out of room.

One thing I just remembered was that cos my 2 kids drank ebm from bottle, they finished quite quickly and tend to be sleepy after that. At the beginning few weeks, I did not make them stay up till 7pm. I would quietly try to entertain them to keep them awake, but if they are ready to sleep by 6:30, 6:45, so be it.
 
AussieMum said:
Personally, I think these books are good for a little guidance, but try not to treat them as gospel or beat yourself up if they don't conform. I also followed a similar book (author was Tizzie Hall - Save our sleep). Admittedly, I didn't follow the routines until my baby was a little older (from around 4 months from memory) but when I did, she often threw me out on many occasions.
Your baby is still very young so I would tend at this stage to just try and listen to him, learn his crys, use the first few months to get to know each other and that way when you are ready to enforce routine (if he is not falling into his own by this stage) you will at least have an understanding of his needs and cries (ie, is he just wanting attention, does he have gas, is he hungry, etc) and be able to handle his needs a little better. Naturally you will both grow with experience.
Just my opinion anyway, best of luck with your new son.
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I agree with all of this and just wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with a baby wanting attention. As someone else mentioned, they are too young to manipulate, they genuinely need love and affection.
For me the first 4 months or so are the best. I give as many cuddles as I can and as my babies want without fear of it making my life worse down the track. We don't do routines at this time and it's worked out fine for my 2 older boys, both slept well from the appropriate age. Third is still in this spoiling phase and we get nary a peep from him unless he's hungry. Each to his own.
 
Also wanted to agree with Jennifer. My now 8 week old couldn't stay awake for an hour for at least 4-5 weeks. Asking a 2 week old to do it seems a bit weird.
 
agree with most of the comments above. we tried putting my baby boy on GF right from day one but found that it simply didn't make sense til he was around 3 months. the other posters are absolutely correct to say that even GF doesn't espouse CIO so early (pretty insane to let a 2 week old cry it out - that is borderline child abuse really). GF does NOT say you should let a 2 week old cio. crying down is a totally different thing from cold turkey cio. letting a 2 week old cio could be very traumatizing and even Dr. Ferber who is very controversial says not to try CIO til after 4 months. after our son turned 3 months, putting him on a schedule started to make much more sense and by 4 months he was pretty much on the GF plan, well with modifications of course.
 
i have used gina routines with both my boys. for the first 4-6 weeks i just went with the flow. i slowly started introducing set feed times. used her as a guide for nap times and didn't worry about self setting at all until around 6 weeks from memory. for my eldest son i would leave him for 5mins (a very long clock watching 5 mins) and go into him. he was textbook cry-down baby at 7pm and for months and months always took 15mins and me going in 2-3 times before he went off to sleep (never any issues duting day!) my youngest had a very different more traumatic cry that pulled at my heartstrings and i could never bear to leave him cry. so for the first 6 weeks i cuddled and rocked him and did all those things. from about 6 weeks of age i started to pat him to sleep in his cot. (the shh pat technique that the baby whisperer talks about i think). i tried my hardest not to pick him up and would not leave the room until he fell asleep. it didn't take long. the patting time got less and less. and if i felt like he needed a cuddle i picked him up and cuddled him and started again.

give yourselves time to find your groove and do what feels right for this little guy who is likely to be a very different baby than your eldest. I felt like a new mum all over again with my second!
 
me too, I follow Gina's Ford's routine since my son was 4 weeks old. I can't thank you enough for her routine! Before that, my life was fallen apart.

didn't know what to do, didn't have any "me" time, didn't have time to have dinner with husband.

I found tight swaddling + shhhhh works. try to put baby to bed carefully in dark....
 
My first son managed well with the Gina routines, but I found that no matter how much I tried, my 2nd had his own ideas.

It was impossible to keep him awake, and he needed way more sleep than her routines offered.
If I had persisted, he would have been completely sleep deprived.

At 11 months he still is a ridiculous sleeper, sleeping from 7.30pm- 8am (usually needing to be woken up) and still sleeping 3.5- 4.5 hrs in the day.

If your baby doesn't fall easily into her routines, don't force it, some babies are just different.
Especially not at this age. Just because the routines don't work at 2 weeks, doesn't mean they wont work in a few weeks time.

It is a really bad idea to let a 2 week old baby cry. The world is a pretty confusing place, and they need to know that you will comfort them no matter what.
 
Can I ask a question on the back of this thread of those who have successfully employed self settling techniques, crying down and shhh pat etc. - I am also posting this separately.

As I said above, I've made a rod for my own back by giving my 12 week old the dummy and rocking him (he sleeps in a hammock so rocking was so temptingly easy..) basically EVERYTHING I said I wouldn't do with no. 2....

He's exactly the same as number 1. bub was initially in that he can fall asleep without the dummy and a little rocking, but will wake 3-6 times in the first hour of falling asleep and need re-settling with rocking at first, but eventually the dummy (esp like tonight if American Idol is on and we want some peace) .

He's at least better than when he was very young as the waking would go on all night until his 10.30pm feed (similar to what onesarah describes)

At 12 weeks he is still waking at 2am and 4/5am, he might take 2 ounces at each feed (I express into a bottle for night feeds) so I know he's not really hungry - I'm sure it's just that he cannot settle himself. He's well over 6kgs so capable of going through the night - plus he's often not even that interested in his 7am feed.

I'm happy to leave the night feeds for now, but the big problem is that from 5 am until 7am he wakes on and off and never really settles properly - I give him the dummy, rock him to sleep, dummy falls out and he wakes up crying. I end up in the spare bed next to the hammock for the duration.

Btw, Naps are hit and miss, some I rock him to sleep with no dummy and he does the whole stretch without waking - other times he needs resettling after a few wakings.

Any advice appreciated, if I fix the dummy/rocking issue might it fix the 5am - 7am issue or is that something else??

As said, he's on a GF routine so I'm usually good about ensuring he doesn't have too much day time sleep - unless we're out and about and it's impossible to stop him sleeping in the bjorn or stroller.

Doc said it might be silent reflux so he's on medication for that, I also use infacol as he's terribly hard to wind - I'm quite sure it can't be wind at the same time of 5am every night though - can it?
 
LeahH - is he in a darkened room? Perhaps it could be that the morning light is disturbing him around 5am. Also, some of my BF mums also suggest that a formula feed late at night might help baby settle into a longer sleep - if you were happy to give him that at 10.30am, maybe it would push his 2am feed later and stop the 5am one?
Self - settling, well that would be nice and I remember it so well with son number 1! I wonder if you need to go cold turkey on the dummy and rocking and try and patting at regular intervals? Or just wait and see if he gets better as he gets bigger.
Sarah
 
onesarah said:
Also, some of my BF mums also suggest that a formula feed late at night might help baby settle into a longer sleep
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Actually I found no difference in feeding formula to ebm in a bottle, both of mine had equiv amount of ebm, still sleep as long. The only difference was no need to increase ebm after drinking is round 25-30oz a day.

At first, my 2nd was also harder to settle, tended to cry and whimper a little before sleeping and woke earlier than 7am, unlike my 1st who immediately went to sleep when I put down and I had to wake her up in the morning. I was also worried that my 2nd would not follow the routine at the time. But I stuck by the method, after about 2 months (on GF from day 5 straight out of hospital), she slept much better than my 1st. For the past year and half, not a sound from her from 8pm-8am, sometimes almost scary. So there is hope.

Maybe cos I had them on GF from the beginning and they were used to it from the start, but I have never found the routine to be coldhearted with babies screaming and crying.
 
I used dummy too to help them sleep, but once they found their thumbs 2-3months old, they would not take it and for me much better, cos they would never lose their thumb. ;-P

The rocking to sleep may not be such a good thing to continue, unless you are really lucky and yours learn not to rely on it. I know a few friends who still have to rock their 2-3 years old to sleep for an hour and cannot put them down until fast asleep.
 
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