it's always the kids and the helpers who lose out

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aussiegal

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You know reading a couple of these threads has gotten me thinking that there really is a divide out there between those of us employers who treat our helpers respectfully and those that don't.

Those that don't, want them to work 7 days a week, to not pay them when they (the employer) decides to go on a holiday and not take them with them, to not give them time off when they are sick, to give them ridiculous curfews on their time off etc etc.

Whilst I think all of this is beyond reprehensible, the helper is an adult and should be able to stand up for herself. A good helper can find work elsewhere. What does suck however is that employers like this often have children who suffer the most from their behaviour. Clearly, many of this type of employer do as good as nothing with their own children leaving the helper to raise them.

I hate to go to playrooms and play areas on Saturday and Sunday afternoons and see helpers looking after kids that are clearly not theirs. My husband and I love to hang out with our son and would never think of fobbing those days off on the helper. When do you see your children, if you do? When do you show them that you love them and are interested in them? When you are tucking them into bed at night?

And how can you expect to raise a child that will be loving, kind and socially adept? Helpers are simply paid to do a job - they are never going to care enough about what type of person your child becomes, how they treat others. Want to know which kids are being neglected by their parents? Look for the naughty kid who pulls other kids hair, pushes them over, is mean etc.

We have a playroom in our building and the last three times i've been there (including twice on saturday and sunday) one little boy has been in there with his helper who was as good as sleeping on the ground with other helpers ignoring the boy. The minute he saw my son (who is only 15 months old) he ran over to him, pinched his arms, screamed at him and pulled his hair. Each time we've been in he's done this and the helper is always away in the corner minding her own business. She doesn't care and why should she, it's not her child. More often than not for her to take such an extreme attitude whereby she knows the kid is naughty and does nothing to stop it shows that she does not like her employer at all and is not motivated to look after the child.

I wish that more employers would treat their helpers with respect. You don't need to give them a million dollars, just be reasonable. I wouldn't want to spend 10 minutes with some of the kids i see running amok yet many have to spend 6 days a week with them.

And almost at the end of my rant - how about thinking about those of us out there who make big efforts to raise our children to be kind to others. Do i really have to take my child out of playgroups and playrooms whenever i see your child there fearing the bad habits they'll pick up otherwise?
 
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its always the kids and the helpers who lose out

You may have the luxury of spending a lot of time with your child, however a lot of parents have to work to make a living. Tons of companies operate on a Saturday and work travel is essential for most jobs. Balance is important for children...there really never is a clear right or wrong. What works for one family, may not work for another.
 
Well said Aussiegal. You would think that parents would want to look after the person who is raising their (often only) child. Especially when they are not able to be there themselves.
 
hi aussiegal, couldn't agree more with what you have said, while you may think you are ranting, you have brought up very fundamental issues which unfortunately alot of parents to do seem to think crucial. You are spot on that maids are not there to bring up our kids and this is the reason why you see a whole generation of spoilt little emperors and empresses trotting around with no sense of self or manners.....how can we expect hired help to instill in our children values we want them to have? I am a full time stay at home mum and I see ALOT of what you see going on in playgroups/play centres/outings - and unfortunately you can't blame the kids as they are not responsible for their situation. While I have said in a previous thread that I know there are some situations where both parents do need to work otherwise they will starve, the reality is that alot of parents just try to have it all thinking if they spend a hour in the morning and an hour at night tucking their little one into bed they have met their parental obligations! Josoo, while I agree each family is different in terms of what works for them, there are fundamental principles that lead to well rounded, settled and happy children and no matter how great a helper you have, she is not the parent! If both parents are working really long hours ascending the career ladder and has no time for the children, one wonders why they had them in the first place? Kids are not posessions, you don't pop them out and stick them in a corner at home like last season's handbag, I think the excuse that work demands are heavy on parents is just not a good enoguh excuse.
 
Josoo, I don't think Aussiegal is talking about parents who have to work long hours, but still make the most of the limited time that they have with their children.
You are right, balance is important, but I guess someone who's child is with their helper Sunday after Sunday, really isn't being parented.
 
although i do agree with everything you have said, try not to pass judgement on the parents of the kids you see on saturday and sunday in the playrooms. you do not know the agreement reached between the employer and the helper. it is entirely possible that the helper has a different day off or something else is at play.

for example: we are seriously considering a move to the other side of HK(way out to sai kung country park from DB).when we decided on sunday to go look at a place, i asked my helper if she wanted to come along. i told her that i didn't mind either way, but if she did want to come and have a look (because we are 95% sure that we want to move, i thought she'd might like to see). she decided that she wanted to come along.
 
HI aussiegal,
I agree completely with all your points.

Josoo, it's not a question of what works for 'one family' - it's a questions of what is good for children. In my years of working in HK, I see so many children wo see their parents a few times a week - simply not good enough.

However, I will agree with the point made tat not everyone has Sunday off. Mu husband and I work strange hours - we're quite often working on the weekend, but we may have a couple of days off in the middle of the week. When we hired our DH, she knew we would need her to be flexible in this regard, and it works very well. So in our case, our helper working on a Sunday os not an indication of anything but that we're working too.

We've all heard the stories about how hard and long HK people work. Again, in my experience, a lot of these hours are time for the sake of time. I know people who take two hours for lunch, yet stay in the office until 8pm. One friend says if she waits until then, the kids will bein bed, and it means se can have a rest when she gets home: what an example of great parenting.

We're so spoiled in HK - very few other places in the world could you afford to have a babysitter, tutor, cleaner, cook all in one for the bargain price of $3xxx. And yet the majority of people I know treat their helper's like a piece of furniture. Yes, many of them are poor, but they have left their familes to work. They often speak English better than their employers (!! YEs, it is true!!) and yet are treates as if they are ignorant just becaue they didn;t anticipate an employer's every whim and fancy. They are paid a pittance, yet every dollar is begrudged, and often, not paid in full.

They're human beings - and they deserve respect - they work longer hours than most of us do. Those of us who actually spend whole days with their children by choice, know that it's extremely hard work to proprerly parent a toddler or newborn. Give these women the respect they deserve.
 
Whilst I agree that most parents have to work to be able to afford to live, there are also those parents who could quite happily survive on one salary but can't because of the lifestyle they've become accustomed too.
 
Aussiegal - I agree with your sentiments, but lets not judge all parents who have their helpers work on Sundays. There are lots of reasons why they might be working then.

When my 2nd daughter was born she had reflux and was lactose intolerent (lactose in breastmilk, believe it or not). She was extremely hard to settle. My first daughter had just started playgroup and was sick a lot. Both girls were up for substantial periods at night and I was getting very little sleep (my helper does not attend to my children at night).

My husband is a pilot and is away a lot. I have no family in HK to help out. When he was away I asked my helper to work (even on weekends), in return for alternative days off. She was happy to help us out during this difficult time and it only lasted for a month or so.

So, you could have seen my helper with one or both of my children for a few weekends. I did the best I could and I think it was quite reasonable in the circumstances.
 
Jane01,
I agree with your position - there's no use having a too-tired mummy for two such little girls. IN these circustances, it would be reasonable to ask for extra help.
However, I think aussiegirl is talking about ongoing patterns of behaviour - where parents constantly hand their offspirng over to others to do the dirty work. I think we all agree it's not in the best interest of the kids.
 
Clearly there are going to be exceptions to my comment about seeing helpers with children on Saturdays (but particularly) Sundays. For the people who are simply including their helper on an outing or have an arrangement whereby they get a different day off my rant was not targeted at you. We all know the type of people I am refering to.

Sumei, i agree that there are a lot of little Emperors and Empresses running around out there. I think it is terrible to see but what better example do they have to follow when their parents aren't present in their lives? Imagine how badly they will treat their helpers and children when they are adults.

Josoo, I too work. I run my own business but I do it from home whilst I have employees working in an office and a shop. One of the reasons I set up my business like this was because I knew that down the track I would become a mother and that I'd want to be there for my children. So, it just takes some forsight and planning. I end up working long hours at night when my child is in bed but I get to hang out a lot with him during the day.

HappyV made a very valid point. We are so incredibly spoilt here. There is no way I could have afforded full time help in Australia, there is no way I could be choosing to have another baby (due anyday I hope :burnout: ) so quickly after my first if I hadn't known I was coming to Hong Kong, land of cheap help. In so many ways my life is made easier by these women who come from countries so poor that the only thing the governments can think to do (or be bothered doing) is to send their women off overseas as if they were goods for export. None of us are any better than them - we just got luckier in the lotto of life. It wouldn't hurt to treat them with a bit of respect. They are simply employees not slaves.
 
I think the rant is about other kids being nasty to your kid. The assumption that it only happens when maids are minding kids is totally wrong. I've seen tons of kids misbehaving around their parents. Whats really frustrating is that the parents seem to think its cute or that others shouldnt mind, because after all, they're just kids.
I personally make sure that I watch my baby like a hawk in the playroom because the older kids arent old enough to curb their enthusiasm. If a kid picks on mine, I will immediately step in and stop him/her. Its nice if the maid/parent controls the kid. But I always assume that they wont and make sure that I'm there to prevent any bullying that might happen. I'm not nasty to the bully, but I talk in a firm, no-nonsense voice, so that they know I mean business. Some kids ignore you, in which case, I physically remove my baby from the situation.
Also the assumption that the maids are not controlling the kids in their care, because the employers dont treat them well, is totally baseless. You dont know whats going on in their homes. In my experience, a lot of maids take good treatment for granted. If they are basically lazy, treating them better makes no difference. And if they good, the same thing applies. They arent going to work harder because you are nice to them. As for speaking better English than their employers, well, if they're so smart, why are they cleaning toilets in a foreign country?
I have nothing against maids. I'm friends with a lot of them because you do see more maids than moms in playrooms. Lots of them are very involved with the kids. They do discipline them and urge them to say please and thank you and behave themselves. So its not all black and white out there.
As for parents neglecting their kids..... that discusssion is as old as the hills and could go on forever and ever.
 
I think its a joke when parants have 1 day off during the week and then pass the kids over to the helper during that day. So i agree with aussiegal.

I see this alot where I live, more so with local people. Some people can't even go for family stroll at the weekend without the D/H coming along for support. The parents are strolling ahead whilst the helper is pushing the child along on a bike behind.

I had no helper for the first year with my little one, but we have a live out now and if she works on a saturday during the day (v.rare) we treat it as over time and pay her extra. She NEVER works on a sunday!!!!! She loves working for us, and we really treat her like a family member, she is an equal. She is so good with my LO she loves him so much and is so proud of his new acheivements e.g walking, eating habits. I am a full time mom and really should be taking my LO to the playroom but let my helper take him, because its a break for her from household chores, she enjoys it and its time for her to chat to other helpers in the playroom. I know for sure she wouldn't tolerate any naughty behaviour from him, she often comes back with stories of naughty children hitting and the helpers too scared to tell them off, my helper ends up telling the kids off especially if they hit my boy.

Still I feel very guilty about having a helper, even if she gives him his lunch I feel I should do it. But I am always in the house with him, only go out when he sleeps, always bath him, always put him to bed, always up with him at 6am. But as children are so fickle he seems to love the D/H more than me, he always stands at the kitchen watching, he always follows her about too. Anyone else get this???
 
As I said, I do agree with Aussiegal's sentiments. I just wanted to point out that you can't make assumptions about the parents of children you see with maids on weekends. There are many valid reasons why they are with their helpers on weekends.
 
I try not to judge too much. I am not the best mother in the world, but not the worst either.

I work full-time - for the $ and also the pleasure. I love my work, got an advanced degree so I could pursue it, and think that it does good in the world. My husband also works full time. We are lucky enough to be able to afford domestic helpers. My husband's mom also worked - had 9 kids and worked like h*ll w/ her husband running a family business.

Their kids did OK, but did not have the "advantages" that middle class kids have today. My husband, as the eldest, and his next sister ended up doing a lot of work that domestic helpers do in many HK families today. In many families at that time, the eldest daughters were "sacrificed" for the younger kids - leaving school early to do chores at home or work to bring in $.

A lot of kids were neglected. My husband said that growing up there were lots of "snot nosed kids" and that was not just an expression. I have also read sociological studies of women in the New territories in the 1930s who had to go out to work in fields or as laborers who had to tie up their kids in the house to keep them from getting hurt or lost.

Where am I going with this? In the best of all possible worlds, all parents would want to be parents and would have adequate incomes, time, and emotional and psychological skills to bring up children who are well loved, healthy, well educated, polite, and gentle.

We don't live in such a world. I wake up early to be w/ my kids, did the "night-time parenting" and try to come home at a reasonable hour to be with them. I am also guilty of liking to go out on a "date" w/ my husband once or twice a month and hoping the kids will be asleep when we get home. ;)

I am not sure how some of the posters think these two topics (lack of respect and legal treatment for helpers & neglectful parents) link up. One does not necessarily flow from the other.

I also wonder why some are so hasty to judge when it is OK for some mothers to work for pay outside the home and when it is not. Frankly, I don't think it's anyone's business but the people involved.

Same thing w/ judging about seeing helpers alone w/ kids on Sundays. We don't know the whole story. I had what I considered legitimate reasons to sometimes need help on Sundays. Some weekends we asked our helper to take of Saturday instead. Other weekends we hired someone to come in and help a bit. I had written the details out, but then realized I was falling into the trap of feeling a need to justify my actions to an audience.

I am not an angel. I sometimes go "tsk tsk" when I see domestic helpers smaller than an 11 year-old boy carrying that boy's back-pack for him. What do I do about it? Tell myself "judge not, lest ye be judged" and also let my helper & kids know that I expect my kids to carry their own back-packs, pick up their own laundry, clear the table, speak respectfully, etc. etc.

Being one of the "older" mothers here (my kids are now 9 and 11 years old) I have seen a lot of kids growing up. Neighbor kids who as pre-schoolers were what I considered rough and rude, now are quiet and fairly polite. A naughty difficult toddler will not inevitably grow up to be a monster.

I try and include and help those kids that I see getting less than (as I see it) optimal attention from their helpers or parents when on the playground, in a play room, or at the pool. I am not afraid to try and tell them "no, no" or "gently now", etc.

Other than that, I work hard to be a good mother, as well as employer, supervisor, and citizen. I sometimes fall short of my ideals, but I try.

Ranting about helpers who are not treated as well as they should be and children who are neglected and/or spoiled is all well and good as a prelude to action. To move this conversation forward, what positive steps can we take to improve situations that have been identified as a problem?
 
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ZEN....don't be so ignorant!!! Some of these girls are well educated and have qualifications as teachers, nurses, accountants etc....So the reason they are cleaning toilets, or however you nicely put it is because they get paid more doing so. I don't think they leave their children and homes for the fun of cleaning the likes of your crap up!!!!
 
"as for speaking better English than their employers, well, if they're so smart, why are they cleaning toilets in a foreign country?"

are you serious Zen? This is an outrageous comment. You sound completely ignorant. Nobody asks to be born into a country like the Phillipines with no opportunities beyond moving overseas and waiting hand on foot for people like you. Perhaps if these helpers weren't discriminated against by people in Hong Kong they would actually be able to use their brains for doing more than just being a helper.

As for those people who have said 'don't judge', it's all well and good to say don't judge but it's missing the point. Some people have genuine reasons for leaving their kids with a helper on a Sunday. I'm not talking about these people. I'm talking about adults who have children yet refuse to act like parents.

Why is it ok to get on here and talk about bad helpers but it's not ok to discuss where employers are the ones in the wrong? People who are responding negatively to what i or most of the other posters who agree with me have said are not really reading what we are saying. Our criticisms are directed only at employers who treat their helpers badly and ignore their own children as much as possible. It effects us who work hard to instill good values in our children as kids learn most from other kids around them. I don't want my child coming home from school having learnt how to be a brat by some child whose parents don't care what he does.
 
I agree very much with the way dh are treated in HK- they are treated as third class citizens. And not just by the people that employ them but by the cashiers in park n shop, and the drivers on the buses (two examples I have seen).

Unfortunetly some people have no idea how to treat their helper. It's almost as if they pay slave wages they get to treat her like a slave. As your employee your dh deserves your respect- espec. if she is the one looking after your child and home all day.
I have a friend who just has no idea how to treat her helper- she then comes into my home and treats my helper the same!!!! I have put a stop to it but it drives me crazy because I know her children are going to grow up treating their dh the same as she does!

I've had people say to me- 'how can I trust someone with my child who has left her own children in the phillipines to work for me,'. This comment also shows a lack of understanding about the plight of most dh. The Phillipines is a desperately poor country and dh don't choose to leave their children- they do it, they come and work for us, because they have a family to support. I don't mean just their own children- I mean their brothers, sisters, elderly parents, cousins, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews. In most villages in the Phillipines if it wasn't for dh working abroad many children wouldn't be at school, many people wouldn't get medical treatment when they fall sick.

I think you will find that a lot of DH went to university in the Phillipines. The sad fact is that they earn more as a dh here than they could ever hope to earn in the Phillipines.

As for parents who hand over their children to their helper to raise them- unfortunetly we live in a society in HK where money, material posessions are number one.

It is possible for two parents to work, to hire a helper, and still raise your child. I know many people who are doing it.
 
Loupou,

while we do believe we cannot stand in judgement over everyone, it does not mean we are not allowed an opinion. I don't think it's relevant to compare the social economic environment our parents and grandparents experienced 40-50 years ago with our current day situation - back then they were in between World Wars trying to keep their families fed and alive, you can hardly draw any similarities to modern day middle class HK life....so saying the children of that era grew up "OK" isnt terribly relevant to our children today!
Despite what you may think, there are alot of women who have pursued higher education (I myself have a first and 2nd degree), worked hard at a career (was VP at a top investment bank) and yet have decided to give it up to be full time hands on parents, we didn't do it becos we didn't enjoy our work or the financial benefits that come with it, we make that big step becos we believe our children's future is just as if not more impt than our personal career development. While life is not as rosy and perfect as it should be, we work hard to try and make it that for our children, throwing up our hands and saying "such is life!" to some of us just doesn't cut it.

And funnily, I think there is a correlation between ill treatment of hired full time help and being neglectful parents (don't for a minute assume I am saying working mothers are neglectful parents becos I am not) - if we can't treat our helpers like equal human beings who are really just employees working in a domestic environment and not slaves, often it's these very same people who think it's perfectly all right for the helper to work 14 hour days (with no Sunday off or public holidays) minding their kids while they work long hours and sleep in in the morning, every morning not just Sundays!
 
Zen, I would also like to add that your comment smacks of ignorance, if not downright racism.

My DH is a lot 'smarter' than many parents I know. She has chosen to come here and work because it means a better life for her family, Her children are looked after by her sister and mother - and certainly, her children are being parented in a much more inclusive, caring and hands on way than many children I meet in HK.

Parenting is hard work - it takes time, energy and yes, brains. If you think of your helper as so un smart, why do you leave yor children in her hands? That's right - because it's easier to pass your kids off to someone else.
 
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